RE: Some neck tricks (Full Version)

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Doitsujin -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 8:16:21)

Ok guys, here´s another neck trick.




estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 9:22:36)

You guys keep changing the subject. We WERE talking about guitars, but as everyone knows I'm not that disciplined at at staying on message when posting, but I stay on topic when I work alone in my shop and that is all that counts.

You guys just throw weird stuff at me because you're bored and you have no life outside the internet, and you know I'll hit an off topic pitch to entertain you. I find it all kind of tedious actually. I posted this particular topic to show a trick about putting on head stock plates and it seemed helpful for some other people and grew a small interesting conversation until the non guitar makers horned in on it.

The other thread about neck relief needs some relief of it's own. Everyone who makes guitars knows that particular Barbero with reverse neck relief is practically a singular example. That thread has become an esoteric nit-picky contest to show who knows more about something that is not common or really what you aim for when building. I think someone summed it by saying it making a mountain out of a mole hill, and I agree.

A while ago I stopped being interested in conversations about what makes guitars good, it is subjective, but there are somethings that really must be in place. The problem on the foro is that a few people will contest everything you happen to say about what makes guitars good and basically do a Bill Clinton on you so I just bagged the whole thing and don't bother. Bill Clinton used to sell the republicans ideas back to them and he's a swift talker. On the foro if you talk about what makes guitars sound good and then another person will tell you you are wrong in front of the whole community. Then they will proceed to make exactly the points you made, but with different language. If you happen to be articulate, they cap you for having good writing skills and being "slick".

I've had enough of the semantic back and forth to last a lifetime, I'm fussy, but not that fussy. I'm just posting simple things I want to share with other guitar makers to see if it moves a conversation forward.



Doitsujin -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 10:15:52)

quote:

I want to share with other guitar makers to see if it moves a conversation forward.


Thats a good thing,.. even that people who arent guitar makers are excluded, which I think is not nice..., let me do the first step! :)

So I personally found the amgled clamper that you used to cut the nut really interesting. :) And the square clamp was a good point afterwards.. good idea to get that 90 degree stop going. Awesome! Lets move on! :)



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 11:47:16)

Let's get really fussy and move on!

Would you like to see more about the method of cutting that angle with the plane?

I wa shappy about how Ethan and Tomn talked about fish glue, although I was about to admonish Ethan for not using hide glue. [;)][:D]

I think it is possible to talk to both guitar makers a non guitar maker at the same time if you put the effort into explaining how you do things.



Doitsujin -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 13:36:37)

quote:

Would you like to see more about the method of cutting that angle with the plane?


Estebanana, honestly Yes! :)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 23 2013 14:25:25)

quote:

The other thread about neck relief needs some relief of it's own. Everyone who makes guitars knows that particular Barbero with reverse neck relief is practically a singular example. That thread has become an esoteric nit-picky contest to show who knows more about something that is not common or really what you aim for when building. I think someone summed it by saying it making a mountain out of a mole hill, and I agree.


Oh my god, we got judged by THE JUDGE himself. The super guy who never nit picky anything. Ohhhhhhh how scary.



estebanana -> [Deleted] (Oct. 23 2013 21:55:07)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 23 2013 21:57:12



HemeolaMan -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 24 2013 2:34:11)

all this talk of slots and heads is sure to capture the intrigue of the non guitar maker.

however, I am not really clear on the advantages of fish glue and hide glue. what differentiates their bonding properties?



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 24 2013 6:24:06)

quote:

however, I am not really clear on the advantages of fish glue and hide glue. what differentiates their bonding properties?

_________________________


Fish glue has more "open time" and it does not have to be heated. Hide glue needs to be heated and it gels and grabs quickly. They both have advantages depending on what components you're making.

Fish glue has two disadvantages, well not really exactly two- You have to watch or clamp fish glue because it can creep while it dries. Just have to make sure your joint does not slip. Fish glue has also been known to start long back and forth volleys of bad fish jokes between luthiers.



El Burdo -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 24 2013 8:50:00)

quote:

Fish glue has also been known to start long back and forth volleys of bad fish jokes between luthiers.
I hear you, Banansan.

'God that is so childish. Is it used for gluing on the scalloped braces?'



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 24 2013 11:43:44)

Ah, I see you put some mussels in that joke.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 25 2013 10:03:37)

quote:

The other thread about neck relief needs some relief of it's own. Everyone who makes guitars knows that particular Barbero with reverse neck relief is practically a singular example. That thread has become an esoteric nit-picky contest to show who knows more about something that is not common or really what you aim for when building. I think someone summed it by saying it making a mountain out of a mole hill, and I agree.


Stephen
You started some oftopic mud throwing in your own thread, and since it was headed at me, I will allow myself to comment on that and to defend myself from your bullying.
Maybe the intentional Barbero reverse neck relief has been discussed to death in your local squirrelhunting club.
But it doesnt mean that all of us have been through that. I´ve never discussed it before it came up in that thread. And IMHO, backbow, neck relief and guitar setup is very interesting.
There´s a world outside everyones little world and my little world is very different from yours.
I´ve NEVER had that Barbero plan in my hands. Its a guitar that doesnt really interest me. (intentional backbow I find interesting and it provokes me a lot) Besides, I´m living in Spain (you know this weird place where they invented guitarbuilding and flamenco) Here, you see very few plans. Most spanish builders dont read and write english, so they dont order American made guitar plans over the internet. I´m a foreigner and so I have a handfull of plans but not the Barbero.

When you take a discussion from one thread and treats it like you do in another thread, the only thing you do is to bully.
If you find this to be ok, go ahead.. Your bullying doesnt really touch me very much. But it tells me a lot about your personality.



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 0:17:38)

quote:

Stephen
You started some oftopic mud throwing in your own thread, and since it was headed at me, I will allow myself to comment on that and to defend myself from your bullying.
Maybe the intentional Barbero reverse neck relief has been discussed to death in your local squirrelhunting club.
But it doesnt mean that all of us have been through that. I´ve never discussed it before it came up in that thread. And IMHO, backbow, neck relief and guitar setup is very interesting.
There´s a world outside everyones little world and my little world is very different from yours.
I´ve NEVER had that Barbero plan in my hands. Its a guitar that doesnt really interest me. (intentional backbow I find interesting and it provokes me a lot) Besides, I´m living in Spain (you know this weird place where they invented guitarbuilding and flamenco) Here, you see very few plans. Most spanish builders dont read and write english, so they dont order American made guitar plans over the internet. I´m a foreigner and so I have a handfull of plans but not the Barbero.

When you take a discussion from one thread and treats it like you do in another thread, the only thing you do is to bully.
If you find this to be ok, go ahead.. Your bullying doesnt really touch me very much. But it tells me a lot about your personality.


Nothing in my comments were pointed at you. Someone asked me what I thought, I thought the whole thing was too much. I think my comments were benign and not bullying anyone just giving my opinion that that topic was esoteric.

Please don't paint me as a bully, kind of a strong accusation if you ask me. I can point out the first thing you did after your summer hiatus from the Foro is to go on Tom Blackshear's Fine Tuning thread and make sarcastic comments and cause a disturbance.

It's no secret you harbor a dislike of Mr. Blackshear, but after being away all summer it surprised me you dropped into his thread and began a disturbance. Here's the deal with Tom, he really just wants some respect, he actually deserves it it in the context of the greater guitar world. However in the beginning when he did come to the Foro he was well, franky often rude and forceful.

Since then he began to work on himself, he admitted in public he had some issues and was changing diet and taking Tai Chi lessons. Over time I noticed he no longer made the clumsy entrances onto other peoples discussions and began a discussion of his own. He stayed on his topic and he stayed in his own thread and did not venture out to bother others. His behavior the last several months has been non aggressive and quite open to the ideas of others, he has not been dictatorial about his view of guitar making, but has tried to explain what he is doing.

He really did change how he interacts on the Foro, and for the better. I noticed and changed my mind about how I regard him. He first annoyed me, but I began to be nice to him and and he was nice to me in return. I also noticed he had a lot of detractors who picked on him for ideas they did not share. While he was being picked on he did not act out and become unreasonable and go all over the Foro wreaking havoc by starting fights. He stayed in his own thread and retreated when it got too hot. After a while I told that faction on that thread, rather straightforwardly, they should back off and give Mr. Blackshear some space as he was not really doing any thing bad to them.

I sense you have resentment that I changed how I feel about Mr. Tom. Your going to have to deal with that on your own. And I have some issues too. In the past you have belittled me for my ability to be articulate in English. I'm not going to apologize or scale back how I engage the world in terms of how I write. On that topic I was wrong about Ruphus too - in as much as I wish he would write differently he writes the way he writes and it's my responsibility to accept that, not his obligation to make me happy by writing differently.

At this point in my life I feel like the odd person out, being away from my old 'Oakland Squirrel Hunting, Microbrew Drinking and Fart Joke Good Old Boys Benevolent Society' meetings on Tuesday nights. Yeah, where we discussed Barbero neck relief to death in the year 1973. Since I am away from my usual haunts in a new culture I noticed something about myself, I'm not much different than Tom Blackshear or Ruphus and actually found myself relating to them more than most other Foroists.

Not really sure how to sign off of this note except to say I don't merit the label bully and dislike being labeled period.



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 3:44:20)

In the spirit of moving the conversation forward...Doit wanted to see more things you can do with a hand plane to work on head plate veneers.
Here's another way to trim the head plate for a nut:

You make an overhanging block that has a 90 degree angle to index from and use it as a saw guide.

I prefer the first way I showed where the veneer is squared off and then glued up with a a carpenters square as a guide. As I said before you don't have t backtrack to trim it, it's already done.

I'm trying to create a path of building that has as little back tracking as possible and I'm always trying to use fewer tools to do more tasks.





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constructordeguitarras -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 3:54:33)

You're in Japan and you're not using a dzouki?!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 7:35:38)

Stephen
You just continue being offtopic, spreading dirt and bullying in your own thread.
Tom Blackshear has nothing to do with your thread or the other thread about neck relief, so why do you start talking about him. Well, I know why.... In order to put me in a bad light. Its a very typical way of yours.
So with respect of your new atacks. You're right that I wrote something sarchastic in a TomB thread when I came back. I deleted what I wrote and said that I would try not to write things like that again. I made an error, I tried to correct it, but I can see that it was not enough for you.
I hope that its allowed on this foro to have an opinion about what TomB writes that is different than yours. I will try to express my opinions in a more civilized matter.

And believe me, I dont mind you having a good relationship with TomB. We all have our opinions untill we change them. Thats very human.



z6 -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 8:33:47)

I must be 'the others' Stephen refers to. I guess this was the same 'others' that pointed out to stephen, in Tom's endless marketng diatribe, that Tom was involved in a scheme that employed 38 people and that that is a good thing. And I do wish him success.

But I don't see why, when someone comes here to 'market' endlessly, they cannot have their wares or claims held up to scrutiny. Stephen took the opportunity for a sideways apology to ruphus. I'm sure 'some people' noticed stephen berating Ruphus for his lack of grammatical awareness, his perceived ineptitude when trying to express himself. I was even 'sideways' criticized as apparently finding Ruphus's writing style 'quaint'.

But I find Ruphus's posts entertaining and full of ideas. Indeed, my strong impression is that even when he is handicapped by communicating in his second third or fourth language his natural poetic character shines through. As he said himself. It is about ideas... content.

Stephen, you start threads. Sometimes you seem almost jovial. But you often become incedibly rude and cite your luthier credentials as a reason why 'other people' should shut their traps. So much talk about the ignorance of 'others'. Did it ever occur to you that 'others' are not your property, even in this little online world? Did you never wonder whether some of the 'others' might be cringing at your arrogance as you post 'examples' of writing teachers, in support of your claim to be a great communicator? And that all Ruphus has to do is 'tweak' his English skills?

Indeed, you often use your 'professional credentials' to shut people up. And I have often put up with your rudeness. What if there are professional writers here? People who cringe every time you attack a non-English speaker for their lack of writing talent. Would they be allowed to tell the great bananaman that even though he quotes people he is not that person?

I get that you and the other great forum bully, guitarbuddha, have managed to hone in on the actual spots of the Bach cello suites that represent genius and those that do not, and that Fingus Macdonagal, a thirteenth-centrury poop trader really wrote all of Bach's, and some of Shakespeare's, work.

But worming your way back up Tommy Toonup's back passage and a mumbled apology in ruphus's general direction, whilst still stepping on the other bugs that you find so tiresome, doesn't cut it at all. And no, I do not believe that you would lose sales for your 'strong opinions'.

I noticed how you even managed to make it seem like it was not you that threw all the ****e around Tom's marketing efforts. And Tom has gone to great lengths to shut you up by showering you with preposterous compliments.

Now you can offer me, and 'others' your apology. Or you can ignore me or get all angry at me. Or you can brandish my 'foro insignificance'.

Jeez man, you should take it easy with all the information compulsion. It shows how much you must like 'your friends' that you put up with their filthy disgusting smelly habits and they still get to be your friend. They must be creaming themselves with pride.

Your posts have become entirely disingenuous. YOU telling people, they have no lives! We get it. You don't live in Oakland. No more shooting. You've gone Japanese and you're all stir crazy.

But that does not give you the right to be rude.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 9:54:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: z6

I get that you and the other great forum bully, guitarbuddha



Hi David, my name is David too.

I am sorry if you think I am a bully. This is not my intention but I am not terribly good at being clear and direct. Online my intentions may not be well reflected in my tone and my conduct not always gentlemanly. And of course at times my intentions may be clearer to others than to me and meaner than I imagine.

I try and come to each thread fresh but since I post so often I often fail. Sometimes when I start to get out of control a friend will let me know, Miguel is good for that. I guess we all miss Ron who was always able to rise above pettiness and hold a mirror up to our excesses.

Anyway I have been bullied online and it is not a pleasant experience so I am sorry that I clumsily inflict that feeling on you. If I have made anyone else feel vulnerable or unwelcome then my apologies to them also.

D.[:)]



El Burdo -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 10:34:25)

(Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved.)
Sod it. Get involved.

Can we not post as if we were around a big table? It's well known that text speak is extremely poor at representing all the additional things that are included in vocal speech and judging from all the hurt that's flying around it's not working well here.
All the big fish have very definite characteristics, which is why they are big fish and each will piss another off from time to time. But why do the protagonists imagine that the rest of us need to read this personal stuff?

It's ruining the vibe here and it's mostly about ego. All the wood stuff is really helpful. Because we are all so different, we will all take different positions on assertions made here, but you/we are all pointing in the same direction are we not? Passion for this music? Let people be eccentric because they will be no matter what you say. You won't change them; it's a forum not a hospital. But let's respect each other.



z6 -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 12:39:08)

Thanks for the reply. It is appreciated. When you called me bitter and something else I must have misinterpreted (even though I, of course, have harbored bitterness in my life; never about music).

I was referring to your treatment of others. But I have noticed you take pains to explain intent. I have enjoyed many of your discussions, as I have with many of Stephen's. (The Bach one was interesting. And as long as 'others' don't get swatted away by the big ears then all is well.

But I recognize that I seem to offend people. If I do, I take the trouble to name them. I do not say these things for a ridiculous online brawl.

I thought the neck thing was demonstrating something almost 'fundamental'. I meant no harm. All of the people on that thread painted an interesting picture. And Anders' comments were insightful and incredibly funny. But I've sinced learned it's all decided. Only the thickos could misinterpret.

Tommy Toonup actually called 'people' slime. And while he and his new protege were hugging like Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush they forgot that Stephen started it all. And deleting the posts made it seem, to even themselves, that all the nasty ignorant trolls were abusing them.

Anyway. I do appreciate your presence here, and if I end up just lurking I'll read them with more compassion.



C. Vega -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 14:53:23)

Really, people? Come on now. You sound like a bunch of whiny little six year olds.
"He called me a bad name.", "So-and-so is a big poopyface.", "He said mean words to me." Waaaaaa! [X(]
Good grief. Grow up.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 15:54:51)

quote:

I noticed how you even managed to make it seem like it was not you that threw all the ****e around Tom's marketing efforts. And Tom has gone to great lengths to shut you up by showering you with preposterous compliments.


Thanks for the thought but I try to be very careful and not lie about things. It's possible that you don't see the true intent of my posts, for sometimes it's very hard to give a heart felt feeling toward an artful endeavor, as it runs so deep in the psyche that it's hard to bring it to reasonable clarity.

I happen to think that Stephen has a great deal of talent, that if directed with some oblique thinking, will profit him greatly.



Ricardo -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 16:00:30)

well, all I know is that ANDERS makes some nice shiny orange guitars sometimes too. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

Can't you all be conde bashing friends again? [:D]



TANúñez -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 26 2013 16:36:27)

Just curioius, I really only read/post on the Luthiers section because I don't do much playing these days as I just want to be a better luthier and learn as much as I can. Is there this much bullsh!t going on in the other sections? Fighting, name calling, arguing, insulting etc etc? I don't understand why this even happens here. It's a place for luthiers to talk to other luthiers about ideas and share info but fights and arguments always erupt. I don't see why. If you read something you don't like or agree with, you just pay no attention to it and continue reading what you do like and find useful. If you do read something you strongly disagree with and feel the need to defend what you believe or think, theres a way to do it without insulting someone. This is a great section on the foro but like someone said, I can't remember who, it's going down. It's turning into something it shouldn't be.



estebanana -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 27 2013 11:48:03)

Thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread.

This why I get frustrated and get pissed off. You have to derail everything you don't like that you perceive threatens your place. Screw you. Mostly screw you El Carbonero you worthless anon. coward and screw the broken nag of a horse you rode on on.

Screw you because I'm going surfing and half of you suck donkey balls.

Oh yeah and have your nagging egotistical little last word fest admonishing me to behave. I will not hear you. I'll be diving off my paddle board into in 72 degree water looking at pretty fish.



Ricardo -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 27 2013 17:31:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread.

This why I get frustrated and get pissed off. You have to derail everything you don't like that you perceive threatens your place. Screw you. Mostly screw you El Carbonero you worthless anon. coward and screw the broken nag of a horse you rode on on.

Screw you because I'm going surfing and half of you suck donkey balls.

Oh yeah and have your nagging egotistical little last word fest admonishing me to behave. I will not hear you. I'll be diving off my paddle board into in 72 degree water looking at pretty fish.



Ok ok... I do prefer a natural finish![8D]



Ruphus -> RE: Some neck tricks (Oct. 27 2013 19:42:05)

I could think of a small number of minds with whom you fellows above could conflict because of fundamentally different approaches of viewing life. Because of hypothetical advocating of takes that would be detected as obviously detrimental to humane being according to understanding of the others.

However this seems not provided with you guys, of whome I have read many posts that showed empathical commonality.

I am convinced that all of you contrary in this thread would actually get along pretty well live. In fact if it was a festivity I bet we would be reeling out with sincere feelings of friendship.
-

Thursday night there was little left from getting serious with a guy who had passed my house trying to whistle up my dogs.
( Some of you know that I am having great troubles with really sick invadors.)
After the almost collision I realized that this guy eventhough unknowingly obtrusive with his unasked attempt to stir up, does not belong to the host of molesters ( as the dogs will not bark when he passes by, confirming that he is not behaving hostile).
Consequently, had he not stepped back I would had obviously over reacted, and unloaded on him what he wasn´t responsible for.

The more strained you are the quicker misunderstandings will occure and eventually escalate.
-

I believe that we are in the midst of a fataly insane global situation ( triggering another desaster by messing up the Arctis [ for a miserable 3 years worth of mioneral oil!] while you don´t know what could arise from other covetousness [ thanks dictionary for this one] between China and Japan, among many other hairy lines of resource targeting and irrational policy) ...
and that any thinking and concerned fellow man, whether aware or intuitively, is being increasingly worn down by that insanity and reckless neglection.

It may not be coincidental that skins seem to be getting thinner and thinner from year to year, and the personal effects that arise from the predatory capitalism only add to that.
You need to be totally off reality to not be ruffled and irritated.
-

I see you friends basically in the same boat, with in the end quite the same aims and goodwill.

As you know, I am not against disputes, even lively ones, but rather against brain deads´ galley that keeps on warshipping superstition and oligarchy.

Ruphus


PS:

It´s been stated that older luthiers used to basicall earn the same like today.
This does not comply with what I noted. I have read of only few antique cases where guitars would command exquisite value. Like with Tarrega´s Torres guitars after Tarrega´s passing.

Generally, however I think past luthiers used to earn much less, even when you equal currency value.

Yet, when we talk net value the generations´outcome indeed becomes close.

Which again indicates the actual difference, which is that never before in modern times has corruption and drain of states budget been as exessive like now.
Which again is what constantly raises dimesnions and ways of tax collection, while in the same time official cashboxes do remain ever more empty.

One of the reasons why good guitars cost small fortunes today while still luthiery remains an unprofitable job for most builders.
-

Thus, me thinks: Unite for marketing. Ground a down to earth international distribution and customer service by use of todays medial opportunities, and tame at least the establishment of overcharging middlemen.
- And who knows: Maybe one day you would become even strong enough to negotiate for a radical reduction of the tax slicing for a benefit of the art.

Why should yet the most shallow movies be subsidized as art product, but not makers of ( fine) musical instruments?



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