Vindication...50 Years Later (Full Version)

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BarkellWH -> Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 9 2013 14:57:57)

Having escaped the political deadlock in Washington over the government shutdown and looming debt limit increase battle, I am enjoying the delightful weather and landscape of Oro Valley, just north of Tucson, Arizona. I always look forward to the announcement of the Nobel Prize winners in October, and this year, while basking in the sunny clime of southern Arizona, has been no exception.

I am particularly pleased to see that the Nobel Prize for Physics was awarded to the UK's Peter Higgs (University of Edinburgh) and the Belgian Francois Englert for their theory, reached independently, postulating the existence of the subatomic particle that came to be known as the Higgs-Boson, the so-called "God Particle," that explains how fundamental building blocks of the universe come together and form mass. Higgs formulated the theory 50 years ago, but it was proven just last year at the CERN facility in Switzerland. After 50 years, it is good to see a theoretical physicist's theory finally vindicated. It demonstrates the value of pure research. Some have said that the scientists at the CERN facility should be given equal recognition for demonstrating the proof of the theory, but that misses the point. What really counts is the mind that conceived of the theory, not the scientists and technicions who demonstrated its proof, important as that may be.

May we always give creative minds the opportunity and the means to advance in their fields.

Cheers,

Bill



hamia -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 9 2013 16:12:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Having escaped the political deadlock in Washington over the government shutdown and looming debt limit increase battle, I am enjoying the delightful weather and landscape of Oro Valley, just north of Tucson, Arizona. I always look forward to the announcement of the Nobel Prize winners in October, and this year, while basking in the sunny clime of southern Arizona, has been no exception.

I am particularly pleased to see that the Nobel Prize for Physics was awarded to the UK's Peter Higgs (University of Edinburgh) and the Belgian Francois Englert for their theory, reached independently, postulating the existence of the subatomic particle that came to be known as the Higgs-Boson, the so-called "God Particle," that explains how fundamental building blocks of the universe come together and form mass. Higgs formulated the theory 50 years ago, but it was proven just last year at the CERN facility in Switzerland. After 50 years, it is good to see a theoretical physicist's theory finally vindicated. It demonstrates the value of pure research. Some have said that the scientists at the CERN facility should be given equal recognition for demonstrating the proof of the theory, but that misses the point. What really counts is the mind that conceived of the theory, not the scientists and technicions who demonstrated its proof, important as that may be.

May we always give creative minds the opportunity and the means to advance in their fields.

Cheers,

Bill



The Nobel prize used to be limited to discoveries which had some tangible benefit - which is why Einstein didn't get one for his relativity theories but for the photoelectric effect. I guess the criteria has changed over the years as it's difficult to think how we can get any benefit from the Higgs particle!



guitarbuddha -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 9 2013 18:12:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

I guess the criteria has changed over the years as it's difficult to think how we can get any benefit from the Higgs particle!


For every Einstein an Oppenheimer.

Is that your point ?

D.



hamia -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 6:48:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

For every Einstein an Oppenheimer.

Is that your point ?

D.


I like the sound of it - so I'm ruling nothing out - but you'd have to expand a little.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 9:58:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

you'd have to expand a little.


OK I'm holding my breath, go ahead.

D



Escribano -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 10:38:07)

quote:

I like the sound of it - so I'm ruling nothing out - but you'd have to expand a little.


Einstein theorised about the bomb. Oppenheimer built it.



gerundino63 -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 11:21:54)

In my oppinion it is very importand to prove a theory.
It is not only worthful for the theory, but also it proves the other paths or theories are wrong. So the others are not consuming energie. ( money?)



Ricardo -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 13:46:10)

quote:

Oppenheimer built it.


Hardly alone.

"God" short for "goddamn" particle, so annoying to locate. Some Physicists I talked to about higgs..."what a waste of money time and energy..." to locate something that so obviously existed in nature. Sort of like the gaps in the fossile record to "proove" evolution is real...a waste of time to focus all resource on one stupid skeleton.



BarkellWH -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 13:59:50)

quote:

In my oppinion it is very importand to prove a theory.


We are in agreement, Gerundino 63, and I recognized the importance of establishing the proof in my original post. My point is that the most important step lies in conceiving the theory in the first place, for without that, there would be nothing to prove.

Cheers,

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 14:11:20)

quote:

Sort of like the gaps in the fossile record to "proove" evolution is real...a waste of time to focus all resource on one stupid skeleton.


I agree, Ricardo, that it would be a waste to focus all recources on one aspect in order to "prove" a theory, whether it be evolution or the Higgs Boson. Nevertheless, I don't think it is a waste of time and resources to direct some efforts toward establishing a complete record (whether it be of the evolutionary process or of the subatomic world) in order to fully understand the macro and micro of the universe in all its aspects. We may never fully understand all aspects of the universe (including the animate and inanimate worlds), but in my opinion, it is one of our finest attributes as humans that we strive to do so.

Cheers,

Bill



runner -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 14:20:32)

I still wonder at the decision to award the 1978 physics prize to Penzias and Wilson for "discovering" the cosmic microwave background radiation, rather than to, say, Dicke, Peebles, and Wilkinson, who actually knew what that damned noise in the antenna was, and predicted that when it was found, that's just what it would be.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 14:24:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

In my oppinion it is very importand to prove a theory.


We are in agreement, Gerundino 63, and I recognized the importance of establishing the proof in my original post.

Cheers,

Bill



Hi guys. I kinda agree with the spirit of these two posts but.....

The whole point of the scientific method is to genuinely endeavour to DISPROVE or eliminate a given postulate. Only when a postulate has successfully resisted all attempts at verifiable contradiction does it become a theory.

The world of mathematics is one which lends itself more readily to the concept of objective proof, physics not so much. In science proof is more like 'evidence' and subject to the same 'balance of probability' subjective evaluation process. Theories are not really true, they either work for a given problem or they don't.

Any 'proven' theory may be replaced by another in order to solve problems which for which the preceding theory could not be used. eg General Relativity and the existence of gravity.

But Newtonian mechanics still got us to the moon despite having been superseded by Einstein.

I had hoped that someone would have floated 'time travel' or warpdrives or djumping as a possible result of the verification of the standard model at the level of the newly observed boson. Which might be fun as I have lost touch with the way in which science fiction inspires scientists and technologists.

D.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 14:33:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

I still wonder at the decision to award the 1978 physics prize to Penzias and Wilson for "discovering" the cosmic microwave background radiation, rather than to, say, Dicke, Peebles, and Wilkinson, who actually knew what that damned noise in the antenna was, and predicted that when it was found, that's just what it would be.


That was a depressing phone call for Dicke. '

Hey guys, that's not a calibration problem you've got, thats my nobel prize !!!!'

D.



gerundino63 -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 15:24:05)

quote:

What really counts is the mind that conceived of the theory, not the scientists and technicions who demonstrated its proof, important as that may be.


This is an eyeopener for me....thanks Bill[:)]



BarkellWH -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 15:45:06)

quote:

The whole point of the scientific method is to genuinely endeavour to DISPROVE or eliminate a given postulate. Only when a postulate has successfully resisted all attempts at verifiable contradiction does it become a theory.


Agreed, GuitarBuddha, but wasn't that the point of the CERN test? Had the Higgs-Boson not been found during the test, it would have undermined Higg's conception of the particle. That it was found confirmed his conception of the particle and cemented it as theory.

On a separate note, I think the term "theory" is misunderstood by many people who confuse it with "hypothesis." Many fundamentalist religious people, for example, insist on calling evolution just another "theory," and state that "creationism" is an equally valid "theory." In doing so they make two mistakes. First, they obviously mean hyposthesis when they say theory. Second, they are dead wrong in that evolution is not just a "hypothesis," as it unquestionably has been confirmed as a valid theory, while "creationism" can hardly even be called a hypothesis except by those with no understanding of the scientific method.

Cheers,

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 16:22:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Agreed, GuitarBuddha, but wasn't that the point of the CERN test?

Bill


I did not question the CERN methodology.

I find the rhetorical device of the false oppostion to be illustrative of the difference between a postulate and a hypothesis.

As do you Bill......

D.



runner -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 17:09:59)

For a fascinating look into the world and mindset of creationists and intelligent design adherents, check out Jason Rosenhouse's recent book Among the Creationists. You will find that the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", and the various strictures and methodologies of properly-conducted science are of no real interest or concern to creationists and their fellow travelers. They are convinced beyond any power to persuade otherwise that they have both hands on the truth, and that's that. It is very important to oppose these people in court and in other venues concerning social and educational policy, but to try to alter the thinking of creationists directly is an exercise in futility (same goes for conspiracy devotees).



mezzo -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 10 2013 18:37:38)

quote:


shutdown
....
creationists



The Radical Christian Right and the War on Government - by Chris HEDGES





[:D][:D][;)]

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ricardo -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 11 2013 3:06:07)

quote:

Agreed, GuitarBuddha, but wasn't that the point of the CERN test? Had the Higgs-Boson not been found during the test, it would have undermined Higg's conception of the particle. That it was found confirmed his conception of the particle and cemented it as theory.


Hopefully, someone can clarify some details about it because I am not 100% clear on this whole thing as a layman. My understanding was the Higgs was "hoped" to be found at the energy levels possible and other accelerators where also hunting in hopes to find it before Hadron. Remember Hadron broke too? So it's like what the F is actually being accomplished? I felt it was understood that if Higgs was not found it did not mean the theory was incorrect...infact it was fairly certain that the higgs mechanism was real and part of nature, and the silly little boson might simple not be found until even HIGHER energy levels could be reached. At least that's how I interpreted it. And along the way at these new energy levels, new s h it was sure to be discovered anyway. But justifying a budget is important of course! [;)]

So I also thought that it was gonna take some years to analyze the data...meaning I am surprised that the award was even GIVEN yet. Last I read the data was showing two particles with in the Higgs mass range, not a definitive one. I totally missed the whole thing of like WHAT IS THE HIGGS BOSON's ACTUAL MASS?????? I am sure they don't give the Nobel prize out so easy, but it seems kind of rushed vs what I was thinking would happen. (some more years of data and more experiment, then some more years to say for sure, then finally the prize comes up as a possibility?) Perhaps for media purposes so funding keeps rolling in to do more research??? THat's fine, I get it. So what is the actual mass of the higgs boson then??

Ricardo



Arash -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 11 2013 9:10:40)

When electricity was 'discovered', people were still using candles and torches.
It was just a funfair attraction.
Nobody thought that centuries later, it would be so important and useful.

So we should be careful about decisions and comments, which theory, discovery or whatever is useful and which one isn't.

I am not sure about this one.

Of course a budget must be justifiable, but as long as countries burn billion of dollars in banks and wars and what not,there are better places to start and save money. Then again, the FED is printing money like crazy and money is worthless piece of paper anyway and as long as this crazy system works, we should also nuke some money in CERNs collider imo.[;)]



Arash -> RE: Vindication...50 Years Later (Oct. 11 2013 13:01:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I totally missed the whole thing of like WHAT IS THE HIGGS BOSON's ACTUAL MASS??????

Ricardo




But i agree with you that we should search for useful stuff instead.
Finding the Anti-Higgs for instance would be much more profitable. A particle that takes mass away. We could make billions of $$$ with an Anti-Higgs diet.



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