flamencochords project (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - flamencochords project: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=242927



Message

kile -> flamencochords project (Oct. 5 2013 18:57:09)

Dear all,

I've been around this forum following the work of many of you. I think you've managed to create a very nice community around flamenco guitar.
Despite I'm spanish, it's not so usual to find online forums for this kind of resources, mainly everything is face to face, but this kind of webs I think they're really necessary to expand the flamenco guitar culture.

So as I love programming (I'm IT engineer) as much as flamenco guitar I decided to create a website to share our works around the world.
It's been a long time and hard working on the application.
I've focused so much on the tabs editor to make it easier to use and render a nice tabs instead of plain text as usual on guitar tabs websites.

It's still long way to go, but I would love If you will help me improving it by sending ideas and of course tabs, chords, videos, whatever :)

The website and facebook (Like will be appreciated)

http://www.flamencochords.com
https://www.facebook.com/flamencochords



El Kiko -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 5 2013 21:06:08)

interesante, seguro de que va tener un montón de comentarios sobre tu site cuando tienes más cosas para ver .. ,, mantenerlo en marcha tio,.....



Ruphus -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 5 2013 21:27:22)

Looks like going to be a great resource.
And if meant as support for free, a very generous and passionate take of yours!
Saw a typo there on the fly. " ... create(d) by ..."
Good graphics!

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Erik van Goch -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 5 2013 22:46:14)

Looks very professional as far as the site is concerned but try to give a bit more rhythmical info in the tabs then only the bars.... when people need tabs they probably also need to be told which note belongs to which part of the beat :-)



El Kiko -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 2:02:50)

quote:

when people need tabs they probably also need to be told which note belongs to which part of the beat :-)


yeah .. I think thats why they invented ''music notation '' as that kinda covers all ..

people who want TABs .. are people who have already heard the music ... in their head they know it so the TAB is more of a guide than anything..



Ricardo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 7:16:16)

Nice idea. Cuidado with the "legal notice" stuff. You have photos of paco de lucia and transcribe his music but are claiming the material on your site as owned by you. If you obtained permissions from Paco's publisher then you should put up that info...if you just doing it on your own grabbin stuff from internet, you have to be careful.



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 8:01:30)

@El kiko: Thank you! I hope to increase the amount of falsetas week by week :)

@Ruphus: Thanks for the typo, if you see something else, please tell me :) And yes I just made it like a free community. I don't plan to make any private/paid version. I've learn many flamenco falsetas for free on the internet with youtubers and so on, and I think it's the way I should give it back. We should help each other.

@Erik: Yes It could be done. The editor is able to add compas over the notes, I just thought the same as El Kiko. Flamenco is usually learn by ear, first you listen the music, then you check the video and then use the Tabs as a reference. But yep could be great to add this compas steps. I'll check it.

@Ricardo: Regarding the legal notice, I've mainly copy a part of other similar websites of tabs/chords. They're almost the same everywhere.
I'm not sure but as far as I know being a public person you can use it picture for non profit purposes as long as you have the rights of the picture, no the rights of the person in the picture itself. In any case I'll check it and I could easily remove and put something else.
And about the rights of the tabs I will change it of to add the owner the same writer of them (I mean the user that transcribe them).
I've read also that it's competely legal to transcribe music from Paco de Lucia as long as you don't copy official transcriptions just made your own, and don't upload his own music or copyrighted videos but yours.
Anyway if you know more deeply about it, please let me know and I'll change.

Thank you to everyone! :)



Erik van Goch -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 8:39:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

quote:

when people need tabs they probably also need to be told which note belongs to which part of the beat :-)


yeah .. I think thats why they invented ''music notation '' as that kinda covers all ..

people who want TABs .. are people who have already heard the music ... in their head they know it so the TAB is more of a guide than anything..


I tend to believe tabs should be equally informative as notes as far as rhythm is concerned (aren't tabs mend to be music notation as well?). The fact many transcribers don't add rhythm in the taps because they expect you to check/mirror it in the usually enclosed note notation i consider to be a kind of misplaced laziness of the transcriber. In this case there isn't even a correct note/rhythm notation accompanying it. I must admit rhythm wasn't always included in the long family history of tabs but it isn't something i invented myself as well.

http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/catalogue/25%20easy%20pieces.jpg
http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/catalogue/Dd.2.11.jpg

In my opinion the only difference between notes and tabs is that in tabs there is no simple way to add the selected fingers (you can tell which fret is fretted as well as the overal hand position but that still leaves the option of selecting various fingers to do the job like grabbing a bulerias A chord with 2 fingers in stead of 3)... in print one could add a different/smaller figure in cases it really matters.

As far as "in their head they know it so the TAB is more a guide then anything" i tend to disagree as well, probably because i have met so many misconceptions, both in my own interpretations as in the ones of others.... can you tell me after which note the first bar comes in Für Elise?


----------------------------------------------
--5--4--5--4--5--0--3--1-----------------
-------------------------------2-------------
----------------------------------------------
-------------------------------0-------------
----------------------------------------------

(my father plays it on the guitar and especially the middle part sounds so overwhelming a friended piano teacher joked "it seems we were wrong all the time, this piece isn't written for the piano, it is written for the guitar")

Or closer to home, can you tell me on which beat the unknown bulerias falseta in the flamencochords project begins and on which beat the last A note ends (0:19)..... or how to interpret the chosen closing strokes in both the video and the tab?

http://www.flamencochords.com/tabs/unknown/2-unknown



El Kiko -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 12:56:09)

I do see your point Erik , and I'm not tying to hijack kile's thread which is about his site an not the TABs thread ....(and i remember there was a Tabs V Notation discussion before)
But I still belive that people request TAB ...as you will see in the request TAB section ...people say ' have you got the TAB for Cepero whatever .''.......this is because they have heard it , they have a recording and want to play it .. they know what it sounds like but they need TAB to keep them on track...or you put up a falseta and people say ...'thats great ..do you have the TAB for it?''
even though there is a vid of you playing it.
It is far more unlikly that someone will say ' Do you have the TAB of a piece of music I have never heard, there is no video and never will unless i play it myself ?''

however in standard notation it happens all the time , i have a lot of stuff ,,no recording just the music and it says SOLEA .. and i go through it and find as I play if i like it or not ...

Sorry for the hijack Kile ....



Erik van Goch -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 14:25:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

Sorry for the hijack Kile ....


Actually i got the impression the main focus of the flamencochords project was creating/sharing tabs/videos of flamenco. Did you notice the huge button "transcriptions" or Kiles statement "I've focused so much on the tabs editor to make it easier to use and render a nice tab"?. I really don't see why the question "i liked this, do you have tabs" should only refer to the actual notes. If people are not able to ear/eye play the notes them selves, what makes you assume they are able to spot/deduct the correct interpretation? For someone not in the know that might even be the hardest bit. On top Kile specifically asked if we could help him improving the project by sending ideas and of course tabs, chords, videos etc. ... noticed he mentioned ideas first :-). In my opinion tabs are a nice alternative for people who are not able (or handy or willing) to read notes (i'm one of them), but not a permit to give only half of the information available.



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 14:48:34)

Erik and El kiko, I absolutly see your point, and of course you're not hijacking the post, I found it very interesting.
As Erik mentioned my main point when I started developing this project it was to create a site where you could find falsetas and chords for acompañamiento al cante.
I think the same about the importance of the timing, I'm still a newbie in flamenco guitar so I still find hard many things about it. I would like to include references to each beat to help with the rhythm.
The idea to use tabs instead of music notation it was mainly because most of people aren't able to create/read music notation and even if they do, it's harder to write a notation sheet than a single tablature, so it could be hard to convince people to help with the web.
Also I don't think the main point about a falsetas repository is to have the exactly notation of the author, but to see also variations from guitarrist to guitarrist, at the end everyone try to play the falsetas on their own way/style.

And as I said before, I'm a very beginner on this so every opinion and advise will be very welcome, and I hope to learn a lot from all of you :)

[:)]



El Kiko -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 15:07:46)

yeah , last time I was talking about people in general ,, wherever they may be not specifically about Kiles' site ..
and i agree TAB is an alternative for people who do not read , i have no problem with that

Kile you will get a certain ammount of traffic on your site but you do realize you are in direct contest with a lot of other sites that may do the same or silmilar stuff,, and some people just post videos of falsetas played slowly , or with split screens etc ..

Incluso tengo cosas con transcripciones y videos en mi propio sitio, que se puede tener si quieres , sin embargo, es mucho trabajo, así que espero que sigue en marcha..



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 6 2013 15:18:37)

Yes I get the point, and I know there're some websites about guitar tabs. Most of them are not flamenco specific and the ones with flamenco tabs are usually more focused on online lessons with paid packs.
That's why I wanted to create it because as beginner and flamenco lover I missed a site like that and I hope no one will bother about it, I don't see it like a (unfair) competition.



mark indigo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 9:03:20)

quote:

In my opinion the only difference between notes and tabs is that in tabs there is no simple way to add the selected fingers


you can use i ii iii iv for left hand fingers.

only problem is confusing i for left hand and i for right hand.

But if you put right hand fingering above the tab, you can put the left hand fingering close to the fret numbers and they rarely if ever get confused.

simple![:)]



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 17:58:14)

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I included left and right fingering in the tabs editor. The left fingering (1,2,3,4) appears in the fret number itself, and the right fingering (pami) appears below the staff.
I attach an example



* There's a bug in the last notes as I forgot to include the note pressed by the thumb (p) :)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Erik van Goch -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 19:37:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kile

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I included left and right fingering in the tabs editor. (p) :)


:-)

Actually i was just thinking out loud since i have hardly ever included left hand indication myself in my tabs because i either gave my students the music in standard notation (notes, rhythm, left and right hand management, indication for position/(half)barre/interpretation etc.) or in what you could call a "memory tab". Those memory tabs included all the info mentioned but in general avoided left hand indication because it would be to confusing (important left hand situations were simply cleared out in words or drawings above the tab). I used to give those memory tabs after we studied the material in the lesson and in that sense i gave/used them indeed like a guide as mentioned by El Kiko. I guess one could argue tabs with a video demonstration can do without left hand indication as well (i only indicated some very odd /important left hand situations in my tabs). Rhythm indication on the other hand i regard to be very important.

Personally i would prefer to save/use those smaller digests for adding notes that are only supportive to other notes/events and are not really part of the main rhythmic events. Annotating them in small digest would allow one to include them as secondary layers, showing the relation they have to the main line without the need to count/add them to the available time space. It's hard to describe the situations i mean but you can think of situations were for instance a note is colored by a glissando or binding in such a way they actually melt together. Or situations were a coloring rasgueado, arpeggio or tremolo is added like in this famous soleares line.


-o-o-o-o-/0-------------------------------------
------------0-------------------------------------
------------1-------------------------------------
------------2~3~2~0~-/2~3~2~0~-/2----
--------------------------------------------------
...............1.and.to.the..2.and.to.the.-3

With tab software i would add a big bow under the oooo part (linking it to the open e of beat 1) and under the 1>3 base part (showing all notes on the d string are binded).

In cases were left hand indication is important one could perhaps annotate them under/aside the right hand indication (or add a note or situation sketch above the tab).

The typography of your example looks quite nice, what software do you use?



mark indigo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 21:38:18)

quote:

I don't know if this is what you mean


no, not 1 2 3 4 for left hand fingers, but i ii iii iv for left hand fingers (what I wrote in the post)



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 22:37:49)

@Erik: I understand your point. Anyway I think one of the main problem with tab is that you don't have usually as much simbols as notation. I wanted to add them to the editor to be similar to the tablatures for example from Manuel Granados' books.
Regarding the typography, it's made using my own editor the one I've developed to be used online. You can try it on the flamencochords.com page while submiting a tab, or directly here www.guitk.com/editor (You can't still save your work in this last page)

@mark: I've used 1,2,3,4 also because I checked the tablatures books I've and it's what I used to see in them. For example in Manuel Granados's Manual Didáctivo, he's using 1,2,3,4 for left hand. I guess in notation it's more common i,ii,iii,iv. Also I think it's clear to fit a small number than this on the editor for rendering or printing.



mark indigo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 22:44:18)

quote:

mark: I've used 1,2,3,4 also because I checked the tablatures books I've and it's what I used to see in them. For example in Manuel Granados's Manual Didáctivo, he's using 1,2,3,4 for left hand. I guess in notation it's more common i,ii,iii,iv.


no, I think in notation they use 1 2 3 4 'cos the numbers are next to dots, so no confusion of numbers. Most tabs don't have any left hand fingering, and where there is dot notation and tab together there is usually no fingering on the tab.

Alain Faucher uses 1 2 3 4 for his tab only transcription, but I prefer i ii iii iv to avoid any confusion with the numbers used to indicate frets



Ricardo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 7 2013 23:44:28)

quote:

Alain Faucher uses 1 2 3 4 for his tab only transcription, but I prefer i ii iii iv to avoid any confusion with the numbers used to indicate frets


not a good idea as Roman numerals are used to indicate fret position. Ex. CIV...means barre 4th fret. tab and standard notation.



mark indigo -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 8 2013 21:55:43)

quote:

not a good idea as Roman numerals are used to indicate fret position. Ex. CIV...means barre 4th fret. tab and standard notation.


yep, but again, i'm using lower case roman numerals for left hand fingers within the lines of the tablature, next to the numbers indicating frets, while fret position of barres etc. uses upper case roman numerals above the lines of the tab.

anyway, works for me, no one else has to adopt it!



kile -> RE: flamencochords project (Oct. 9 2013 16:46:44)

I've just uploaded a video showing how to use the tablature editor, in case someone is interested:


And if you want to go for the source code, just have a look here:
https://github.com/kile/guitareditor.js



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