Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Full Version)

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constructordeguitarras -> Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 16:06:12)

I'm trying to learn Gerardo Nuñez's Jucal bulerias from the transcription in this book but I'm not really a music reader. Can someone who reads music well help me with this difficulty?

The key signature has five sharps: F,C,G,D,and A. It seems to me that there are some errors because, for example, at the end of the third line on page 29 (the second page of the transcription), the measure starts with a note indicated on the TAB as being on the 5th fret of the 5th string (D, right?) but in the notation it is written as C. I suspect that the TAB is correct, but I'm not sure. Later in the same measure there is a note that is a C sharp, 4th fret of the 5th string, but why in the notation is it given a sharp sign when it is already sharped in the key signature? Does this have something to do with the other C/D? Same thing again on p 31, first line, second measure.







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guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 16:16:16)

Hi, that funny looking X is acutally a double sharp not a regular sharp.

The reason is that the key is D# phrygian which is best notated with the five sharps of B (it's relative major).

Since D# is the home note for musical (not specific to the guitar) reasons the note is not written as D natural as that would tend to suggest a modulation.

It might seem confusing but there are very very good reasons for this.

This book is very very reliable (except where Faucher has added notes to fit compas in the seg to make up the time where Nunez had chosen to play freely) so enjoy.

D.



tri7/5 -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 16:24:59)

I could have sworn there was a Faucher tab for this piece... could be thinking of something else though.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 16:30:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

I could have sworn there was a Faucher tab for this piece... could be thinking of something else though.


There is , we are looking at it.

The engraving of the score is also top notch.

D



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 16:33:32)

Thank you so much, D. That makes sense.

Except that he uses the exact same x symbol to indicate golpe!

Tri7/5: This IS a Faucher transcription. Maybe there is a free version floating around on the Internet.



tri7/5 -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 17:00:07)

I just totally ignored the tab showing at the bottom for this so ignore my previous post. I went into tunnel vision mode when the question of key signatures started showing up and was only looking at the notation.



El Kiko -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 18:17:28)

yep thas right the x is a double sharp so C then C# then C## same note as D
Also when you see those roman numerals above the music , like CIV and CVI etc , is an indication of where , what fret your hand would be on to cover that passage ...

like the very last bit you put in has a CII and the note at that point is a F# , or would be a presuming there is no key change so , first finger on fret 2 for that bit .

sometimes a note will have a sharp again even though it is already sharp in the key signature because there may have been a natural before it and this returns it to a C# again , if it was in the same bar anyway ..

So a C natural at the beginning of a bar means all the C#s after that are naturals unless you put a sharp again ..after the bar line the key signature applies again ..


YOu should be ok as you have the music and the TAB and if you have the recording and you can slow it down to hear bits you are uncertain about ...you really cant have any more than that ....unless someone comes around and actually puts your fingers in the frets ...[8D][8D]

By the way when are you going to post this when it is learned ? I dont think I would like to attempt it myself , even with the music .... So well done if you can do it .......



hamia -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 19:02:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Since D# is the home note for musical (not specific to the guitar) reasons the note is not written as D natural as that would tend to suggest a modulation.


Yes. A D natural would mean a flattened 1 (which I've never seen). Calling it a C means that it's considered as a 7th note, in this case sharpened to a major 7th.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Sep. 30 2013 22:14:36)

Kiko--

I hope I can learn and play the whole thing. I love GN's music. The sound is awesome and the techniques feel so flamenco. I particularly like this key because it feels like more notes are available below where you're playing than usual.

I tend to play things too slowly--just ask Maymi who I was playing duets with. But if and when I get it all together I will be happy to make a video and post it. That has been sort of the carrot I am using to get myself to work on this.

-Ethan (Oh, I mean Mario)



Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 13:19:17)

This a unique case of music theory nerdery at it's best. Truth is Faucher has it correct BUT, I take issue in practicality because one should think harmonically with guitar music. When studying music theory in school I was quite secure using my understanding of the circle of 5th to solve or reduce any music examples down to a home scale/key signature relation....UNTIL the dreaded AUGMENTED 6TH chords harmony. THis arises first studying music of Mozart in school. Lo and behold I encountered this weird theory phenomenon in my beloved flamenco music EVERYWHERE. Here is what is going on.

When talking of harmony and scale, you can't skip or repeat a letter in the 7 letter alphabet of music. Lets take E phrygian instead of D# phrygian as the example:
EFGABCD....

There occures in flamenco accidental notes (of course) such as G#. You don't call it Ab for a couple reason:
EFAbABCD....that is no good because the G placement in the scale has disappeared. That is the scale reason, the harmonic reason is:
EAbBD.....that "chord" is not a real chord because a chord is defined by staking third intervals. E-Ab is a FOURTH by it's spelling so even though it SOUNDS like a chord the spelling of it is wrong because there is no way to make a root out of some other note. (technically you could try different ways, but it is a clue that there is some violation of basic music rules here and some simple error of naming the notes is going on).

To transpose Nuñez to E phrygian as above examples we have the raised 7th of this phyrigian scale. That would be D#. Now here is the problem. When I encountered Aug 6th chords it was a bizzare case of a dog biting his tail. The stacked 3rds spell this:

D#FAC....that is the French 6th (or german or italian I can't remember and don't care sorry LOL) and always found in first inversion so you have:

FACD#....now my guitar playing instinct found that to be quite fishy. Because it is a simple basic Domiant 7th. THe function here is this move VI7-V7...and in classical this would move to i or A MINOR in our case. Flamenco is not classical and this move is borrowed to make the E a stronger tonic. BUt a dominant 7 chord built on F is necessarily spelled FAC Eb!!!!!!!! not D#, now way ever.

So I realized that a deliberate MISS SPELLING Of the chord is done for the sake of VOICE LEADING....that means it is easier for a vocalist to read a D# that resolves to an E note, vs an Eb that resolves to an E natural .....ON PAPER.

So going back to Jucal, Faucher is following complex rules of scale and voice leading to notate the melody RATHER than the simple rules of harmony construction.

I am of the opinion that as a player I prefer the simple approach, as the intent of Nuñez is about the harmonic move implied by the note (thanks to the E drone bass) so we have actually a very clear E DOMINANT 7 chord (EG#BD) ....of course it pulls to tonic D# nicely, but the argument is over the importance of voice leading (CX) or harmonic spelling (D natural). I don't consider it a mistake on Faucher's part in any way. But I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anybody spelling it D natural, thanks to that E bass note.

HOpe that makes some sense. Now this key (5#'s) is unique that we do have an odd double sharp requirement being the F double sharp, which we guitar players know is a ridiculous way to describe the open G string, but is in this case "correct" in every way. To describe the entire piece in Eb instead of D# will encounter more trouble than it's worth. (getting rid of the double sharp we encounter worse non guitaristic things such as Fb open strings, Cb open string etc....). So it's a necessary evil so to speak, that double sharp, in this piece and any others in this key.

Ricardo



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 13:35:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

This a unique case of music theory nerdery at it's best.

I am of the opinion that as a player I prefer the simple approach, as the intent of Nuñez is about the harmonic move implied by the note (thanks to the E drone bass) so we have actually a very clear E DOMINANT 7 chord (EG#BD) ....of course it pulls to tonic D# nicely, but the argument is over the importance of voice leading (CX) or harmonic spelling (D natural). I don't consider it a mistake on Faucher's part in any way. But I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anybody spelling it D natural, thanks to that E bass note.



Ricardo


In the spirit of frivolous nerdery there is no B in that E chord. The melodic material kinda suggests whole tone ideas with a chromatic passing tone between the root and the seventh of the chord.

Anyway these kinds of difficulties happen a lot(try reading through a Joe Pass chord melody transcription). But it is still worthwhile for the engraver (probably not Faucher I suspect) to try and find solutions on musical grounds rather than going for the speciously guitarist friendly option. Guitar Pro scores tend not to read well.

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 14:11:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

This a unique case of music theory nerdery at it's best.

I am of the opinion that as a player I prefer the simple approach, as the intent of Nuñez is about the harmonic move implied by the note (thanks to the E drone bass) so we have actually a very clear E DOMINANT 7 chord (EG#BD) ....of course it pulls to tonic D# nicely, but the argument is over the importance of voice leading (CX) or harmonic spelling (D natural). I don't consider it a mistake on Faucher's part in any way. But I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anybody spelling it D natural, thanks to that E bass note.



Ricardo


In the spirit of frivolous nerdery there is no B in that E chord. The melodic material kinda suggests whole tone ideas with a chromatic passing tone between the root and the seventh of the chord.

Anyway these kinds of difficulties happen a lot(try reading through a Joe Pass chord melody transcription). But it is still worthwhile for the engraver (probably not Faucher I suspect) to try and find solutions on musical grounds rather than going for the speciously guitarist friendly option. Guitar Pro scores tend not to read well.

D.


The B natural is sort of implied by the previous melodic pattern over the Emaj7(#11) and F#7/A#....But even it's absence doesn't change my point that the existing notes (EG#D) spell a dominant functioning chord. (5th is acceptably omitted from voicing of 7th 9th or 13th chords). We could actually describe what's going on here is not "whole tone" so much as Lydian Dominant.

1st phrase repeats a lot= E lydian (Emaj7#11)
2nd phrase half compas= F# mixolydian (F#7/A#)
3rd phrase half compas= E lydian dominant (E7#11)
4th phrase half compas= C# dorian (C#m7/E)



Erik van Goch -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 14:36:44)

Not familiar with Falkner's transcriptions (i either use my fathers transcriptions or ear play it myself) i very much like the rhythmic/harmonic clarity of this particular transcription. It's a pity he didn't apply the same rhythmical approach/clearness in the tab version, which (once again) has to be mirrored to the standard notations to make sense.... still an impressive job.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 14:37:22)

'Emaj7(#11) and F#7/A#'

That first inversion chord there is actually quite open to interpretation, if I were to fill in the harmony I would add an D sharp on the fifth string. Try that and I guarantee you will like it. Kinda makes the allusion to the paralell minor explicit.


'Would could actually describe what's going on here is not "whole tone" so much as Lydian Dominant'

I would call it Ealt and leave all that to the soloist. Lydian Dominant kinda suggest we are going to A, but who cares. The B may or not be implied from the previous bar, personally I actually hear a very clear change of tack on that chord.



D.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 14:46:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


4th phrase half compas= C# dorian (C#m7/E)


Thats not remotely how I am hearing that. All I hear are melismas and chromatic approaches outlining D# phrygian very clearly.

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 14:53:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


4th phrase half compas= C# dorian (C#m7/E)


Thats not remotely how I am hearing that. All I hear are melismas and chromatic approaches outlining D# phrygian very clearly.

D.


slow it way down [;)]

truth is the low E is just giving rondeña famous lydian flavor for the entire peice



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 15:04:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo



slow it way down [;)]




Ok, three Es sounding, you want me to infer C#Dorian from three Es ? Really ?

I am seeing the low E a tritone substitution for a dominant pedal, like the Bb in every chord of a por medio buleria turnaround.

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 1 2013 22:20:47)

quote:

Ok, three Es sounding, you want me to infer C#Dorian from three Es ? Really ?


Possibly not talking about the same section of music? I am describing the half compas phrases. The last one being:

E/C#/G# chord...followed by notes A#, G#, F#, E, D#, C#, D#, E....

C#minor triad in first inversion followed by 6 of the 7 notes of the C# dorian scale.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 2:21:19)

This is what I was talking about. Didn't mean to start a war.[:D]



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mark indigo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 9:29:48)

double sharps will always be next to a little black dot. golpes will always be above the stave.

if you see the symbol in amongst the lines and dots next to a black dot, don't hit the guitar.

if you see the symbol above the lines and dots with no black dot next to it, hit the guitar.

[:D]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 11:12:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

This is what I was talking about. Didn't mean to start a war.[:D]




There is no war, just good natured willful nerdery.

Ricardo thinks E7-Cm. I hear E7-E13 doesn't really matter as long as whatever theoretical model is chosen helps memory or improvisation or synthesis in composition.

Anyway thanks to Mark for pinpointing and clarifying the confusion of the double flat and the golpe.

I might just add that this is a throwback to the days when a score had to be physically typeset and there were only so many available symbols.

D.

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Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 13:11:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

This is what I was talking about. Didn't mean to start a war.[:D]




Making the best out of available symbols. There is no standard for notating flamenco techniques, but for standard notation there is. Anyway, Faucher is really good, probably the best around, but I noticed something funny years ago. He puts little tiny mistakes, I believe on purpose, in order to catch plagerizers. The mistakes are always compas issues, the kind that any good player or reader could spot, and subtle enough that if you DO spot them, you can easily fix them when you play. Jucal is no exception, and the small mistakes occur in two spots.

First page 39 bottom entire system (actually the measure before the rasgueado should continue to beat 11, not stop on 10), needs to shift to the right a half beat, the triplets should be expressed as galloped 16ths (8th and 2 16ths not triplets), and the last arpegio also should shift a full beat to the right. Next page back on track.

Next page 45, second system all the way to count 6 at the bottom of the page. needs to shift a full beat to the right again (the D# chord on count 12 is correct however)....the last note (F double sharp) needs to land a half beat before count 6 (the D natural on last measure of 3rd system also needs to be an 8th note and pull back half a beat all the rest of the phrase).

Considering the razor sharp accuracy of the rest of the piece, these little spots seem really really odd to me. Knowing that he has these odd little errors in most of his transcriptions, I believe they are deliberate. He accused Encuentro of stealing his works, and I indeed noticed that they copied some of his errors....like cheating on a test in school and getting the exact same things correct and wrong. Regardless, I do recommend both his work AND encuentro for serious students.

Ricardo

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constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 14:33:15)

Thanks, Ricardo! These details are much appreciated. I thought there was something wrong with the rasgueado passages in general. The other things I probably would never have caught. I did make a half-speed CD for myself from Gerardo's recording, but the "little notes" are inaudible.

Encyclopedias put some bogus entries in to be able to catch thieves. It's unfortunate that a transcriber would feel the need to put errors in a transcription on purpose.



mark indigo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 2 2013 15:59:48)

quote:

Anyway, Faucher is really good, probably the best around, but I noticed something funny years ago. He puts little tiny mistakes, I believe on purpose, in order to catch plagerizers. The mistakes are always compas issues, the kind that any good player or reader could spot, and subtle enough that if you DO spot them, you can easily fix them when you play.


I assumed some of the differences in AF's music books were because (AFAIK) unlike the handwritten tab only transcriptions he sells he makes the books with the co-operation of the artists, and video's them playing the pieces he transcribes, often with differences of detail, timing, syncopation etc.

but some of his old handwritten transcriptions of fandangos were really odd, bar lines put in really odd places (not where you would count 1 2 3) and other odd things like really far out fingering positions, so they look like mistakes that I couldn't understand (given the obvious accuracy of everything else) except as intentional.



machopicasso -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Oct. 6 2013 7:26:20)

quote:

double sharps will always be next to a little black dot. golpes will always be above the stave.

if you see the symbol in amongst the lines and dots next to a black dot, don't hit the guitar.

if you see the symbol above the lines and dots with no black dot next to it, hit the guitar.


Well, that's certainly good to know. Thank you.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Dec. 7 2013 16:28:08)

What about the last chord on page 32? Shouldn't the note on the 5th string be C# (barring 4th fret) rather than A (open string)?



Ricardo -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Dec. 7 2013 23:42:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

What about the last chord on page 32? Shouldn't the note on the 5th string be C# (barring 4th fret) rather than A (open string)?


Well it is supposed to be muted, as he moves the same shape up the neck. If he hit the open A it was incidental and accidental. Nothing wrong with barring the chord as you saw but you have to barre all of them. When I play this I simply mute the A string at all times.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Jucal Transcription by Alain Faucher (Dec. 8 2013 1:12:33)

Thanks, Ricardo. I'm seriously working on this piece.



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