When does a guitar reach its best? (Full Version)

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britguy -> When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 25 2013 22:59:32)

I've read lots of stuff in here and elsewhere about when guitars reach their "best", and just how long that "best" may last before deterioration, etc.

Am curious to know what professional luthiers, and experienced players, may think about this:

In general, when should a quality, custom-built guitar start to attain its best sound/playability, "open up" , etc.

Maybe after one, two, three, five or more years??? And do different woods 'open up' differently, and by how much?

And how long would one expect that 'best' quality to last before deterioration starts to show up? After ten, twenty or more years. And what factors might influence this?

Presumably, this would likely depend on the individual guitar and its maker. But what would one consider to be an 'average' answer to both questions?

I'm guessing there are likely no simple answers, but who knows ?

Let's try to learn something. . .



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 25 2013 23:22:38)

It's kind of like asking - When do fruit trees yield the best fruit? It's a big long meandering answer, but probably has something to so with sugar. The fruit reaches it's best when it tastes good.

I remember when I lived in Micronesia we had a garden in the front of the house. It had pineapple, papaya, a few coffee trees and several banana trees, two different types. There was lots of ginger and onions too. It was quite an education to work on the garden. We took the trunk stalks from old banana trees and half buried them at the roots of the coffee trees because banana plants are nitrogen fixers. The fed the coffee trees nitrogen as the banana bio mass disintegrated.

We also went to US Agriculture station and go to the Beneficial Insect Program hut to get these winged insects whose names I have forgotten. The looked like grasshoppers. We placed them on the Papaya trees to eat the White fly, a small white fruit fly. The hopper insects would gobble up the white fly and when there was no more food they would die. No chemical pesticides.

The best thing was going into the garden before dark and sizing up all the papaya. Then you would pick one to eat for breakfast the next day based on which papaya you thought would be at it's prime at 7am the next morning. You clipped that papaya at the stem with the pruning shears, and walk then baby back into the house. I would put my papaya on the kitchen table and dream about how it was going to taste with coffee and a squeeze of Kusae lime juice.



krichards -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 7:15:32)

quote:

Maybe after one, two, three, five or more years???


Not years but months.
A guitar is made of wood glued together with a polymer. Then you put strings on it and introduce tension and compression. Then someone takes it somewhere else and it sits in a different ambient temp/humidity etc.

So it takes a few months settle down.
After that its up to you, the player. You practise, you get better, the guitar seems better. That's all there is to it imo.



Stephen Eden -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 9:51:55)

This is just like asking how long a piece of string is! There are soo many factors involved it makes it impossible to answer. Then factor in the subjectiveness of the question 'what is good' and we start to get into a complete muddle.

A proffessional player told me the story of his old cedar topped guitar which lasted for 15 years. He played it pretty much every day for 8 hours plus and he felt that was all it give. I had the guitar in my workshop for some time as he didn't need it and felt i should have it to get the neck measurements from. Any way I played it and thought the guitar sounded wonderful and full of life! Perhaps he had got so used to the sound it got dull in his mind. I will never know



tele -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 10:54:22)

Very experienced luthier told me the sound matures 30 years and after 70 years it starts to degrade(alot like humans[;)])



tri7/5 -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 12:30:19)

If you read some comments from Aaron Green on the board here he regularly praises guitars from the old masters from the 50's and 60's that come into his shop and still have great tone. Seems like a good guitar could last through a lifetime without issue.



Ricardo -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 14:24:12)

some cheap new guitars are stiff. They need to be pounded on to open up (Rumba is really good for this). Or just played maybe takes longer. Well constructed guitars are normally good from the start. I'd give it a year before call the instrument certified junk. Guitars don't get any worse unless neglected of course and humidity damage occurs. The 1923 Esteso (90 years young) cared for and played by many owned originally by Ramon Montoya, played like a well broken in modern conde to me. The idea guitars deteriorate over time is BS IMO. But neglect can be a problem even for new guitars. THey need to be played and loved.

Ricardo



Ruphus -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 15:19:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The idea guitars deteriorate over time is BS IMO. But neglect can be a problem even for new guitars. THey need to be played and loved.

Ricardo


I think so too.

Ruphus



Sean -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 15:55:15)

Depends on construction as well. Condes can be well braced with thicker tops, so they will need more playing in then a hotter, thin topped guitar.



RobJe -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 26 2013 16:24:44)

There are no objective measures of the quality of guitars that are acceptable to all or even most players so you should not expect any quick or precise answers!

Self-delusion is a factor to consider. Old sceptics like me don’t find much in the way of improvement but I could be wrong. On the other hand it is possible that some need to persuade themselves of improvement to justify their original decision to spend a lot of money.

Another factor is salesmanship. If someone tells you that a guitar that you might be buying “hasn’t opened up yet” you might wonder if this is a way of persuading you to buy a guitar that is simply not very good.

Perhaps changes are so subtle that they have escaped me, but if they are that subtle you should be doubly wary of any claims or promises of significant improvement.

So with my potential prejudices and self-delusions acknowledged I just want to say that all the guitars that I have owned and really liked were really fantastic (to me) from the start, stayed that way and didn’t suffer from major structural defects (lucky?). I don’t count battle scars, wear and tear and the odd crack as a problem. The oldest guitar is 48 years old. Some guitars that didn’t live up to the best (my mistakes) stayed stubbornly unlikeable until they were sold.

Rob



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 0:29:12)

I liked my answer best. It's like waiting for fruit to ripen. Does not take that long.



britguy -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 12:55:19)

quote:

liked my answer best. It's like waiting for fruit to ripen



Well, Stephen; from my experience - determining fruit ripeness is a combination of watching for the colour change; feeling the top of the fruit for changes in hardness, looking for any splits near the stalk, and finally, just cutting one apart and eating a piece.

Not sure if I'd fancy following that procedure on any of my precious guitars. . .

But I get your drift. . .



RobJe -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 18:08:44)

quote:

I liked my answer best. It's like waiting for fruit to ripen. Does not take that long.


Peter Sellers would surely have agreed (at 58)




Erik van Goch -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 19:40:25)

I have no other excuse for posting this than that i totally love this recording of Pires enjoying the experience of playing Chopin on a period instrument (19th century).

http://nachtklassiek.ntr.nl/2011/10/28/tijdens-een-repetitie-van-het-orkest-van-de-18e-eeuw-in-polen-was-pianiste-maria-joao-pires-aanwezig-zij-kon-het-niet-nalaten-een-zeer-oude-piano-uit-te-proberen-19-06-2011/



tijeretamiel -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 20:43:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I liked my answer best. It's like waiting for fruit to ripen. Does not take that long.


Yes. I like this perspective.



Leñador -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 27 2013 23:14:10)

quote:

I have no other excuse for posting this than that i totally love this recording of Pires enjoying the experience of playing Chopin on a period instrument (19th century).

I wanted to see it but they keep trying to make me eat dutch cookies or something.........



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 28 2013 0:06:53)

All is well in the garden, and all will be well.

When building; Guitars sound terrible when you first string them up. The first 15-20 minutes can be a real disappointment until you get used to it and realize you can't judge yourself then. But not always.

After an hour the G string begin to sound, or be weak, new strings make the whole guitar sound tinny, but you begin to hear the strength of the core.

Leave it overnight and the strings or what ever unevenness seems to level out. The guitar improves dramatically over the next two days. Or you think it does.

Two weeks, strings have stretched adjustments made, some play, trebles begin to show more complexity. After that it some guitars develop noticeably and some don't. Some stay the same and then after several months have another shift for the better.

It's difficult to explain because they don't all follow the same pattern. The variables are environmental, and structural and how much it gets played.

Something else happens to instruments that get older, they oxidize. The woods change an become lighter. The process of being under tension, and going through season after season of expansion and contraction must have some effect on relaxing the wood. And in turn this relaxes the entire structure making it vibrate easier or allowing certain parts to resonate more.

It's all so difficult to actually quantify that I find it less stressful on my brain to simply be poetic about it. The deal is once you explain your version of how gutiars open up, someone else explains another version. A great deal of it is about personal perception.

Birdy num num?




Leñador -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 28 2013 0:12:12)

Oh my god I forgot about birdie num num! Best scene ever! lolololol



constructordeguitarras -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 28 2013 4:45:32)

I'm sure it depends not only on the particular guitar but also on the environment that it's in. Stephen's answer is exactly right.

Now, with strings I can be more definite: They usually take me a week to break in and then after another week they're worn out.



Erik van Goch -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 28 2013 13:01:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I wanted to see it but they keep trying to make me eat dutch cookies or something.........


Yes, that's quite an issue over here. Dutch government has regulated that Dutch websites have to inform you that they use cookies to fallow/guide and often spy your surge activities. Up to recently nobody made a point of it since it is standard procedure when visiting a page. Unfortunately that new and irritating law now forces dutch websites to ask your permission to use them. It would be functional if they would have to make a distinction between functional cookies (needed to help and guide you on that site) and spying cookies (from external advertisers that watch over your shoulder to exploit your surfing behavior with personalized ads). Unfortunately companies are not forced to split the functional and the spying cookies so in precent day situation either you accept the whole package or you are not welcome. If you accept cookies you accept both the cookies that help/guide your surge activities on that page as well as the ones that spy you. You can safely agree to accept them since youtube and all other huge internet players use them all the time without warning you/asking your permission in advance (and they use many more spying cookies then most dutch sides). If youtube was a dutch company you had to give permission for accepting cookies as well.



Ruphus -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 28 2013 15:18:08)

I found cookies to be an outrageous thing since the times when I realized what the term represents.

How the hell has something like that been tolerated by systems of law that offifically forbid the principle of such on default?
Installing crap on people´s computers in order to serve yourself!!? Not enough, to be hosted and computed by them?!
Let alone the disadvantageous property of tracking and spying, and that sniffing should be by visitors´permission exclusively even yet if cookies were not installed on people´s computers but soleley straining the websites server ( which is not even the case).

Me still advocats the cease of such procedure, and the exclusive conduct under permission of visitor. And any offence against such due regulation should be rigorously punished. Just as much as any other violation of privacy and appropriation.

Cookies are like with societal systems where you are being called on to finance and perfect your own manipulation and exhaust, only that cookies might be realized as of such principle; even by joggers in wonderland.

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 29 2013 2:14:37)

I find cookies to be delicious, I eat as many as possible. I still lament the unfair and untimely demise of the Hydrox cookie and its subsequent disappearance from store shelves.



RobJe -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 29 2013 10:40:00)

quote:

All is well in the garden, and all will be well.

..... Guitars sound terrible when you first string them up. The first 15-20 minutes can be a real disappointment until you get used to it and realize you can't judge yourself then. But not always.

...... The guitar improves dramatically over the next two days. Or you think it does.

..... After that it some guitars develop noticeably and some don't. ...... Some stay the same and then after several months have another shift for the better.

It's difficult to explain because they don't all follow the same pattern. The variables are environmental, and structural and how much it gets played.


..... It's all so difficult to actually quantify that I find it less stressful on my brain to simply be poetic about it.


Very happy with these modest claims and to live with uncertainty.

Rob



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 29 2013 15:06:48)

quote:

quote:

All is well in the garden, and all will be well.

..... Guitars sound terrible when you first string them up. The first 15-20 minutes can be a real disappointment until you get used to it and realize you can't judge yourself then. But not always.

...... The guitar improves dramatically over the next two days. Or you think it does.

..... After that it some guitars develop noticeably and some don't. ...... Some stay the same and then after several months have another shift for the better.

It's difficult to explain because they don't all follow the same pattern. The variables are environmental, and structural and how much it gets played.


..... It's all so difficult to actually quantify that I find it less stressful on my brain to simply be poetic about it.



Very happy with these modest claims and to live with uncertainty.

Rob


Now that you said you're happy, it's made me happy. I should stop now and forever be happy and uncertain. A friend visited me here in Japan, he played one of my guitars on a video, I asked him if I could post it here. He said please don't I find the foro environment too stressful. I'm thinking that too.



RobJe -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 29 2013 15:58:17)

quote:

Now that you said you're happy, it's made me happy. I should stop now and forever be happy and uncertain. A friend visited me here in Japan, he played one of my guitars on a video, I asked him if I could post it here. He said please don't I find the foro environment too stressful. I'm thinking that too.


I am happy to listen to someone who talks about struggling to find the truth and suspicious of those who claim to have found it.

If you bare your soul in a forum like this it makes it more interesting for us but I guess that it comes at a personal cost - but maybe with some benefits also? All I can offer is a picture of my pre-orange Conde.

Rob



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



jlneng -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Sep. 30 2013 22:56:09)

When the person playing it learns how to get the most out of it....
John



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Oct. 1 2013 0:24:46)

quote:

I am happy to listen to someone who talks about struggling to find the truth and suspicious of those who claim to have found it.

If you bare your soul in a forum like this it makes it more interesting for us but I guess that it comes at a personal cost - but maybe with some benefits also? All I can offer is a picture of my pre-orange Conde.

Rob



That is a nice golden brown. I like that.

The problem is that I'm not going to roll over on this issue and make orange guitars to be in the pack or to please anyone. I make them for myself and the people who commission the kind of guitar I can make. That does not mean I could not make a different guitar. I'm also not very suave with the general public. I lack the ability compromise in public on issues I believe in, I think it turns off many many potential customers. I can see by what I read on the foro that a few other makers have gained potential customers that I pissed off. Popeye Syndrome, I am what I am.

Here is a test sample comparison I did with varnish that would be found on a Conde' and my own shellac colored with a tincture I made and applied as a pumice paste ground.
My shellac with pumice ground is on the left, the Condesque varnish on the right. Notice the dull orange square.

My ground would be ready to accept an orange varnish, but I have not found the one I want yet. The varnish must be like a clear lens to amplify the refractive index of the whole finish job. The refractive index refers to how much light a finish can allow to pass though it. Color in the mechanics of optics in wood finishing and painting is about using a finish that lets the maximum amount of light pass it and then the light is reflected back out of the wood as it hits fibers of wood deep in the surface. The objective is to allow light to shine back out from the wood unobstructed as possible by particles in the finish that could block the light.

When the pigment in the varnish is a light blocker with a low refractive index it creates a varnish that does not allow as much light back out. It effectively kills the light entering the film of varnish by blocking it. Add to that a bad varnish which also has a compromised refractive index and you have a finish which renders the wood structure as dull, non refractive, less interplay of reflected color, less clarity.

The way the grain pops and the clarity of my finish contrasts greatly with the way the Orange Conde' style finish kills half the flash in the wood.

This is my problem, I know all about clarity, depth, and which pigments and varnishes crate highly reflective finishes, why would I kill three to four weeks of hard work making a guitar only to cover it with a Conde' style finish that obscures how beautiful the wood is?

( the size limit on foro pictures will not allow me to use the high resolution version of this photo which really shows the difference, but you can see the idea.)



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



jshelton5040 -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Oct. 1 2013 0:45:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I make them for myself and the people who commission the kind of guitar I can make. That does not mean I could not make a different guitar.

I'm so pleased to hear you say this. We've always made guitars to please only one person...ME. If customers don't agree with my assessment of what makes a good guitar they are sh*t out of luck.



estebanana -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Oct. 1 2013 13:26:09)

quote:

'm so pleased to hear you say this. We've always made guitars to please only one person...ME. If customers don't agree with my assessment of what makes a good guitar they are sh*t out of luck.

_____________________________


I like your attitude.



britguy -> RE: When does a guitar reach its best? (Oct. 3 2013 13:11:43)

quote:


ORIGINAL: estebanana

I make them for myself and the people who commission the kind of guitar I can make. That does not mean I could not make a different guitar.
I'm so pleased to hear you say this. We've always made guitars to please only one person...ME. If customers don't agree with my assessment of what makes a good guitar they are sh*t out of luck.

_____________________________


I find these comments really interesting.

Does that mean you (two) build according to some personal formulae you each have, regardless of the characteristics of the individual woods you are working with on a particular guitar.

In other words, do the individual raw woods (face, back, ribs etc.etc.) have any bearing on how you build a particular instrument. My guess would be that they surely must have some influence on the building process.

And further; what are the principal characteristics that you would be looking to achieve in an instrument. What are your priorities? Can you qualify them verbally, or are they kind of intangible - something you feel and can not express in words?

(Maybe dumb questions (?), but always looking to learn something from builders)



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