Flamenco time (Full Version)

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Guitarsid -> Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 13:37:14)

Hi this is my first newbie question, I am slowly getting familiar with all of the general aspects of flamenco.
I have heard someone say all flamenco is in 12/4, but that does not seem right as I am now studying my first piece, the common rhumba (Dm, Am, E7, I am sure you know it) and it is in 4/4. So my question is this, could you list or rank the most common to the least used time signatures, just in a very basic manner with maybe the percentages each occupy in the realm of flamenco music?
Thanks very much!




athrane77 -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 13:44:48)

Bulerías: 12/4 or in many cases 6/4
Soleares, Alegrías,Seguiriyas: 12/4
Rumba, Tangos, Tientos: 4/4
Fadangos de Huelva: 3/4 (one might say it's 12/4, I think 3/4 fits better in that case)

more or less, it's a lot more important that you can feel the rhythm (compás), the theoretical aspect can help, but first my advice is to listen a lot to cante and to guitarrists you like. Listening to Moraito Chico is a great way to get that groove. This man is pure compás




Escribano -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 14:03:39)

quote:

I am now studying my first piece, the common rhumba


I would recommend starting with soleáres. The mother of palos. It gets you into the 12-beat cycle (the compás).




britguy -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 14:17:43)

quote:

would recommend starting with soleáres.


Totally agree!

I believe most traditional teachers always started beginners with Soleares first.

Then maybe add Alegrias, very similar rhythm structure. And then perhaps Fandangos de Huelva.

Remember to watch the accent patterns ('compas').

Those three should give you a good start in traditional flamenco.

Good luck. Enjoy it. . .




Erik van Goch -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 14:20:36)

Guajiras/peteneras 6/8 3/4

Seguiriyas actually should be counted in 5 beats (3 short ones and 2 long ones): 1*,2*,3**,4**,5* (1 and 2 and 3 and a 4 and a 5 and) but many people seem to understand it more easy when they count the inner beats (*) as well which makes a pulse of 12. Even some pretty good foro members count it in 12, but all the professionals i met count it in 5.

There are also a couple of pieces that are flexible and often even "free"of rhythm like tarantas, granainas, mineras and rondeña. They are related to fandangos and can adapt it's 3/4 (12/4) pulse, but also a 4/4 pulse (tarantas). But quite often the rhythm is indeed "free' (although you always have a certain concept of which notes feel/behave like a beat).




athrane77 -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 14:25:15)

quote:

starting with soleáres.


[:)]




xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 15:24:19)

i have to disagree...although the soleá is a good start, i'd most definitely use it together with tangos, which is rhythmically more familar to anyone new to flamenco and offers a chance to practice the difficult new techniques in a friendlier environment...




Guitarsid -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 15:29:52)

Thank you all, keep posting because this is a very good response and great advice for someone like me who is just getting acquainted with these aspects. I am relying mainly upon youtube for instruction, plus what is available here and it is great to receive these opinions and help as this is very valuable guidance for me!

Erich, I found a good beginner seguiriya video here that counted the pattern in 5 as you say.
I will explore the soleares, alegrias, and others mentioned also.




Leñador -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 15:45:37)

I would stop thinking of these palos in terms of time signatures and start thinking of them in terms of repeated beat cycles, they've got inherent accents, time signature does not convey accents....




Erik van Goch -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 16:33:03)

As a student of Paco Peña i played open strings with pulgar for quite a wile. Than a lot of soleares, soleares and even more soleares. Not because it is slow but because it offers so much possibilities to work on all possible techniques at all possible levels. Also it is relatively easy to upgrade those variations in a gliding scale of complexity whenever the student is ready. On top it introduces the phrygian key right away. If i remember well at the end of the first year a little tientos/tangos, seguiriyas and bulerias was added. Later alegrias and fandangos fallowed by most of the the other palos. When i teach students that are less ambitious then becoming a pro in 5 year i don't play "open strings only" for weeks but still quite a lot of soleares. But also a little bit of tangos, farruca and sevillanas. My main aim is giving them a solid base that don't have to be corrected when they decide to become a pro after all. So i always work from very simple to more complex. The challenge is to balance correct development with musical pleasure.




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 16:34:04)

Slow 3/4 is most common. The quarter note most often defines the tempo, 16th notes subdivisions are the groove. (verdiales, jaleo, slow solea for baile, buleria, etc)
Next most common is 3/4 but faster where dotted half note gets the beat. (fandango, alegria, fast solea, etc).

A very important pattern is alternating quarter note and dotted quarter as the beat. As two dotted quarters followed by 3 quarters where eighth notes keep steady (can occur inside of the the normal slow 3/4 with 16th notes subdivisions as in buleria or guajira and in the faster 3/4 songs like Alegria or quick solea but as alternating dotted half notes or normal half notes and quarters remain steady).

A similar thing (dotted quarter and regular quarters alternate as pulse) where you start from the SECOND quarter, cycle through the pattern and end on the first quarter (siguiriya serrana martinete etc). THis un symmetric pattern is better thought as two odd meters cycling 7/8 and 5/8 grouped as 2+2+3/3+2.

ANother important pattern is the feeling across two bars of 3/4 where the dotted half gets the beat, that there is another slow 3/4 underlaying the two bars. Sort of like 3 half notes trick the ear as the beat...but they are not really, it's an illusion caused by phrasing and or chord changes. (Sevillanas and Fandangos mainly).

The family of 4 beat songs, I strongly feel are better thought of as 2/4 with 16th note subdivisions. As per the feeling and how the foot taps normally. (many many many many people disagree with me and think 4/4 with 8th note subdivisions, but to me it is simpler to think slower tempo 2/4 instead). Goes for rumba, tangos, tientos, taranto por baile, farruca etc etc. Also within this family are the closely related 6/8 songs (tanguillo and zapateado for baile).

Now all that info will help out very adept rhythmic minded folks that studied drumming lets say, but the reality is flamenco has it's own discipline and if you don't learn to count 8th notes and accents like the dancers do (non musicians of course), then you are missing out on some simple tools of communication within the genre. Many of the 3/4 meter songs are counted in cycles of 12, though the un symmetric cylces are counted by the 5 accents. THe 2/4 meter songs are counted in 8.

The SUPER SUPER SUPER important distinction to make with flamenco meter vs other types of music, is that the rhythm cycles don't always lead to the down beat. Sometimes they do but musical phrases inevitably end on the last beat, and often don't start on the down beat. There is a head and a tail to phrases, where as other musics tend to always lead back to the head or downbeat. For example in the slow 3/4 meters, you have many phrases start after 1 and always it ends on or around beat 3 of some other measure. Cuadrao phrases (square phrases) are usually long and end on the 3rd beat of 2nd or 4th measures. "half compas" phrases also end on 3rd beat of odd bars. The same thing manifests in the dotted half 3/4 songs with strong endings on what would be the second measure of the phrase, down beat of or 2nd beat of (as per the illusion that a slower half note is getting the pulse). Often that makes people think of those meters as always 6/4 but we always find again the "half compas" odd 3/4 bar here or there.

And same deal with the 2/4 family, most often beat 2 is the stop ...and again phrases may begin after the 1. In the case of 6/8 tanguillo same deal, stop on 4 of the 6/8 is the same as the stop on 2 of a 2/4.




flyhere -> [Deleted] (Aug. 7 2013 16:56:31)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:30:45




Morante -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 17:57:48)

You can learn the basic compás while walking to work: left foot, right foot etc. "1 and 2 and 3 and a 4 and a 5 and" is seguiriyas. 12 and a 3 and a 6 and 8 and 10 and" is bulerías etc. once you can fell it, leave out the numbers and feel the pulse.




Guitarsid -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 7 2013 17:59:49)

Thanks again, you guys are helping a lot, this forum is a great resource.

btw, I am not really at a stage yet to learn many songs proper, for now I am spending a lot of time just working on the basic techniques like tremelo, rasgueo, etc. and using them in little songs I play "at" like a malaguena, spanish caravan, or with just familiar chord progressions like dm, c, bflat, a, etc.




Guitarsid -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 8 2013 18:18:30)

quote:

Slow 3/4 is most common

Usually, are there four measures of 3/4 for the entire beat cycle, which equals 12 beats for the cycle? It looks like that is the case for soleares.




Leñador -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 8 2013 19:09:51)

Here's how you should look at Fandangos, you need to liberate yourself from the time signature thing.





Guitarsid -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 8 2013 20:47:39)

That is a great piece. I am sure when I get my bearings and more familiar with this, I will go for the cycle feel as you say. Now I am just getting acquainted with these things, so your advice is very helpful and does help my "fear" of learning some of the rhythms. Trust me, I am a rank beginner at flamenco even though I have played guitar for over 40 yrs and drums for about 12 yrs. I am in my first week of rasgueo and alzapula, etc. and last night I did my first golpes with index and thumb at the same time. Not very good but I did it, these techniques are very hard indeed.
It is a very humbling experience to be such a newbie but I know I will prevail. This is the way I wish I had learned guitar from the very beginning, but things were different back then and there was no help to be obtained where I was, so I went another path. I love all the music I have done and do not regret that, but I really have a desire to play this music and this style of guitar playing! so I thank you Lenador.




Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 10 2013 18:44:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitarsid

quote:

Slow 3/4 is most common

Usually, are there four measures of 3/4 for the entire beat cycle, which equals 12 beats for the cycle? It looks like that is the case for soleares.



Yes although this type of thing, 4 bars, is called "cuadrao" compas...it means square or squared off. You will encounter smaller units often called "half compas" but best to just understand that 12 is not a "rule", just a very common pattern.

Ricardo




Guitarsid -> RE: Flamenco time (Aug. 10 2013 22:30:08)

Thanks a lot Ricardo, I see what you mean. It seems there are a number of variations in the rhythms, more than I was first told, and that is the main reason for my asking about it in this thread, thanks!




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