Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Full Version)

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BarkellWH -> Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 15:00:16)

For anyone considering a trip to Paracho to look at guitars, be aware that this past week witnessed a steep escalation of drug cartel violence in the state of Michoacan, the Mexican state in which Paracho is located. Paracho is located about 60 miles west of the state capital of Morelia.

Various reports indicate that during the past week gunmen staged eight guerrilla-style attacks on convoys of Mexican Federales, killing four and wounding at least 15. According to today's Washington Post, "Open combat involving government security forces, criminal gangs, and the local militias that have emerged to fight them have left at least 42 people dead this past week in Michoacan."

My advice would be to avoid going to Paracho, or anywhere else in the state of Michoacan. Don't be lulled into complacency by thinking the violence only involves cartel gunmen, Federales, and local militias. Cartel thugs have been known to kill foreigners just to demonstrate that the government has no control over them. You don't want to go to Paracho to look at guitars and end up with your head on a pike as a symbol.

Cheers,

Bill



keith -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 18:25:12)

i cannot imagine the navarro family, and other luthiers, trying to build guitars while bullets fly about. quite a few posters here and elsewhere have told tales about the problems in mexico and it looks things are getting worse. a definite bummer for the locals and their economy given how much they depend on tourism.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 19:14:53)

I was last in Michoacan three years ago, visiting Morelia and Patzcuaro, a lovely town just to the west of Morelia. The violence is not constant, nor is it present everywhere at all times. But the outbreaks are frequent enough and serious enough to be a real danger, not usually present in the USA outside gang dominated areas.

The USA is not perfectly safe. Twelve years ago I was staying at the Westin in the Houston Galleria, an upscale hotel in a nice shopping center. I was standing just inside the wide glass lobby doors, waiting for my daughter to pick me up.

Two lines of vehicles appeared, cars and pickups. They met head to head in the parking lot. The stereos were blasting, the low riders started hopping up and down. The confrontation escalated as people began yelling, and a few gang bangers got out of their vehicles, swaggered toward their opponents, and thew gang signs.

I had been living on a remote Pacific island for the previous nine years. I watched the gang confrontation fascinated, until it occurred to me what the next step might be. I moved away from the door and stood behind a three-foot thick concrete column, in case the bullets began to fly. I caught the eye of a well dressed Mexican businessman who was still standing by the door, watching the novel spectacle. He got the hint and moved behind the pillar with me.

But in Mexico, it can hit the fan without warning.

Also in the mountain country around Paracho, besides the drug cartel wars, there is civil unrest in the outlying villages that has been simmering since the Spanish conquest, and is experiencing one of its periodic outbreaks of overt violence.

Much as it breaks my heart to say so, I agree with Bill. You might make it OK. Or you might end up dead like the nice Dutch young man we met in Patzcuaro on that last trip.

RNJ



n85ae -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 19:56:32)

Scary stuff, it might get as bad as here in the Chicago area there before too long ... Why over the July 4th
weekend alone we had 29 shootings ...

In fact during the "Surge" in Iraq we stayed on top as well.

Yet I have never seen any shootings myself while living here.

All things in perspective I suppose. :)

Regards,
Jeff



Leñador -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 20:05:15)

Pretty grim...My friend canceled his plans to go visit his parents in Morelia a few months back because of the violence.



Sean -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 21:18:37)

All the top luthiers in Mexico, don't have a showroom full of guitars to sell, they have short waiting lists, and nothing usually on hand.
If your goal is to risk your life for a low end, no name guitar, go for it, "Hasta la vista baby".
If you want something good, your gonna have to wait for it to be built anyways, so stay home where its safe.

Unless of course you live in Chicago[;)]



keith -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 26 2013 22:23:10)

being an ex-chi-town person i still stay tuned into what is going on there. almost all of the violence is on the south and west sides--da hood. if you can avoid those neighborhoods you are golden. it sounds like the violence in mexico has hit a lot of areas where folks would be golden if it were chicago. i suspect tourism in chicago has not been drastically affected by the ongoing violence in the hood whereas it sounds like mexico's tourism trade is getting socked.



Arash -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 17:04:07)

I think "Prism" is a lot scarier than that mexican cartel dude.
As an american (actually not only as an american) its better to turn off your PC, throw your mobile in to the toilette, knife through your phone cable, and go to mexico. At least there you see with your eyes whats goin on and you can probably hide somewhere if necessary.



BarkellWH -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 18:42:35)

quote:

I think "Prism" is a lot scarier than that mexican cartel dude.
As an american (actually not only as an american) its better to turn off your PC, throw your mobile in to the toilette, knife through your phone cable, and go to mexico. At least there you see with your eyes whats goin on and you can probably hide somewhere if necessary.


Whatever you may think of "Prism" (and you will find Americans running the spectrum, for and against), to suggest that the carnage occurring in Mexico is more benign than NSA's gathering of communications in order to uncover and combat potential terrorist plots is to take paranoia to a whole new level. Unless you are communicating with suspected terrorists or known terrorist organizations overseas, you will have no problems under Prism. And your head will remain attached to your torso. In certain areas of Mexico, you are far more likely to have your head separated from your torso and displayed on a pike, or rolled onto a nightclub floor.

I am not endorsing the "Prism" program. But I think it's ludicrous to consider it a greater threat than the cartel violence in Mexico.

Cheers,

Bill



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 20:51:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

Scary stuff, it might get as bad as here in the Chicago area there before too long ... Why over the July 4th
weekend alone we had 29 shootings ...

In fact during the "Surge" in Iraq we stayed on top as well.

Yet I have never seen any shootings myself while living here.

All things in perspective I suppose. :)

Regards,
Jeff


Is it safe to assume that you avoid certain areas of Chicago to reduce the likelihood of seeing a killing, or being the victim of one?

There are parts of Mexico which are relatively safe, as far as I know. But they do not include large areas, incuding the Texas border, Michoacan and Sinaloa. How do the Chicago shooting statistics compare with the 70,000 deaths from cartel violence in Mexico in the last six years?

I travelled alone in Mexico the whole summer when I was 17. Two friends and I camped out in many parts of the country all summer when I was 23. As many people did at the time, when we were off the beaten track we went openly carrying firearms. Over the years I have spent many months in Mexico, traveling alone on public transportation, traveling by motorcycle with one other biker, and traveling with my wife and kids by car or train. I have a number of friends in various parts of the country. Listening to what they have to say, I wouldn't cross the Texas border, nor would I travel to many parts of Mexico, incuding one of my favorite parts, Michoacan.

RNJ



n85ae -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 21:46:21)

Honestly, yes I do avoid certain parts of Chicago, because I am white. This may
sound racist ... However, it is simply common sense. There are certain parts of
Chicago where it is not safe for me to go. My wife is Chinese, there are places
in China it is not safe for us to go as well, however typically people we are with
know where these place are, and we avoid them.

You're expanding it a bit also when you compare "Mexico" to Chicago ... How about
compare the entire US, this would be a bit better, over six years was it? I think we
can meet or beat the violent crime stats if you were to do that :)

In any case, my point wasn't actually to get into a debate, just that it is hard at
times to really determine if a place is, or is not safe based what you read in the
news. Since a lot of this stuff is often very localized, etc.

Regards,
Jeff



LaVaquera -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 22:34:36)

I know many Michoacanos who don't want to be there either, so they head North and bring their music. Welcome addition I might add.



BarkellWH -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 27 2013 23:11:22)

quote:

I know many Michoacanos who don't want to be there either, so they head North and bring their music. Welcome addition I might add.


Who can blame them? The states of Michoacan, Sinaloa, and others, and the Mexican towns along the border, have become charnel houses.

Cheers,

Bill



RTC -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 28 2013 4:39:07)

quote:

Unless you are communicating with suspected terrorists or known terrorist organizations overseas, you will have no problems under Prism


Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin



chester -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 28 2013 7:35:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RTC

quote:

Unless you are communicating with suspected terrorists or known terrorist organizations overseas, you will have no problems under Prism


Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin


That's clever. Did you make that connection yourself?

How has prism affected your 'freedom'?

Remember - the government built the Internet. Assuming they're not going to keep tabs on it is naive.
Don't be naive.



Ruphus -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 28 2013 9:55:23)

With such huge data, automatic applications are required to frisk and sort.
This again introduces reasoning flaws of individuals who order or write these programs.
The result is that the rating as suspect target goes way beyond ratio and yields into totally over the top observation of the people, including aunt Eusebia.

Further, in view of empirics it is not far to seek how specially sincerely democrat and philanthropic individuals will be classified, and such again resulting in them given a hard time with how officials, major companies and judicative will be treating them regardless of truth and qualification.
Just the familiar outlawing since McCarthy, only latently.

Finally, while actual prevention of terrorists is rather questionable in view of the unbelievable size of the US and international frisking apparatus, industrial spionage to US combines´advantage is much less so a vague matter.

If you compare the two fields of engagement it remains not really uncertain what the main conduct of the internet frisking is. It is the conservation of given industrial / capital and societal establishment.

If you are in R&D, or requesting true democracy or environmental / animal protection then you will be as firmly observed like the official and allegedly main target namely terrorists.


There is just way too much traditional right wing behind "state security".
In Germany since the late NSU and secret service revealings folks won´t outrage that much anymore when you mention the brown reality, and the people in much of the EU and USA will understand too sometime how foxes have been set to keep the geese.

Same procedure like every year, James.

Ruphus



Escribano -> RE: Latest Alert Regarding Paracho and Michoacan (Jul. 28 2013 9:56:28)

I am not replying to anyone in particular, but I can see where this is going and it is off-topic of the original off-topic post. Enough warnings about travel to this region have been mentioned, so I am locking this thread.



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