Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 21 2013 10:38:26)
I was born in 1962 as the son of a classical guitar teacher/student and future head of the classical guitar department of Rotterdam Conservatory. At the age of 4 i could already sing all the classical guitar music he had studied in my presence, which basically included every piece worth knowing at conservatory/concert level. Being the son of the teacher of most local guitar teachers you might expect me to be in a perfect surrounding to start playing the guitar at a very young age myself, but being a child of his time/culture himself my father choose to start my lessons at the age of nine, which at the time was the usual age to start (classical) guitar lessons at music school. Over the years however we have seen numerous examples of children who started playing much sooner with excellent results. So it seems one can start whenever the fingers are strong enough to fret/plug a string.
I don't think starting at a younger age would have made a huge difference in my case. I simply was to energetic to sit down/concentrate for more then 5 minutes in my youngest years. It is very funny to realize that a child that was more then a handful for both his parents and his school teachers (concentration wise) later in his life would develop/apply a way of studying that demands (way) more concentration then most people can cope with.
At the age of 5/6 i was allowed to hold my fathers guitar in classic guitar position once. It probably was the only time in my life i hold the guitar in a proper way (my father took a photograph of that rare moment which was later used to demonstrate the correct way of holding the classical guitar in his lesson book). Between 9 and 12 i took guitar lessons and was the bass player in my father musicschool-band (at the time a totally revolutionary way of working with children... when we performed at Rotterdam Conservatory were future teachers were trained that totally changed the professional view on working with children and it was also the first time ever mic's and amplifiers were spotted in the building).
As far as playing the guitar was concerned i was only interested in melody and harmony and hardly showed interest in technique/rhythm and reading notes. During a music school performance one visitor even pissed of my father claiming "that little boy in the corner would never ever learn how to play the guitar", meaning me. Indeed i stopped taking lessons at 12, the exact age i started to explore flamenco. Between 15 and 18 i ear-played all records of Paco Peña and between 18 and 22 i ear-played all records of Flairck (picking up 12 string guitar, banjo, bouzouki, sitar and violin as well). In 1985 my father and Paco Peña joined hands in starting the first professional (5 year full time) flamenco guitar school in the world. I survived the auditions based on my musicality but had to learn how to play the guitar from scratch again dude to the many many bad habits i had developed over the years. There i learned to play the guitar decent enough to become an official flamenco guitar teacher.
here is the 11 year old Jeronimo
and this is the 9 year old Amos
but for those who lost hope....... Vicente only started to play flamenco at the age of 12 (but he's a natural and they are quite rare...foro member Luciano seems to be one of them).
estebanana -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 21 2013 13:28:49)
Gitana moms start teaching them compas in the womb when they do palmas at home. Womb.
tele -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 21 2013 19:36:00)
Whoa, don't judge me but those are some f'd up videos(the korean)[8D]
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 12:17:51)
Kang Eunju (that little korean girl) happens to be one of the best young musicians i've ever seen and i value her performance as high as i value Paco de Lucia. We can only hope she is well and happy.
odinz -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 15:06:30)
I think a good age is when I child seems interested and curious about it, atleast if you dont want to force it. I was forced to learn some things at a very young age and now I dread it, though I know that it does not always turn out like that.
I also think it is important to make it a fun and giving experience, make games out of it and such, otherwise I don't really think there is a certain age that is right, everyone is different[:)]
Miguel de Maria -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 15:25:23)
I love that little Korean girl, too. I am part Korean myself, and I find it so depressingly predictable that any vid with an Asian kid has to get the stereotypical negative comments.
It seems that most great players start around 4 years old, in any discipline. Yo-Yo Ma, Tiger Woods, John Williams, etc. I would think the ones in the most nurturing (and accomplished) environment who have an unusual interest in the subject would have the advantage. Some kids can't sit still for 3 seconds--I know one 5 year old who will play with Legos all day, and even brought Legos to his own birthday party!
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 29 2013 18:21:14
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 16:35:36)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I love that little Korean girl, too. I am part Korean myself, and I find it so depressingly predictable that any vid with an Asian kid has to get the stereotypical negative comments.
Totally agree, i really hate some of the comments posted in reaction to videos like hers. Do you have any idea if there is more material available of her (lacking korean characters i can't google her original name) or how she's doing?
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 29 2013 18:19:39
Leñador -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 16:59:06)
This proves that the "my hands are too small" excuse is BS. [:D]
tele -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 17:13:08)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Whoa, don't judge me but those are some f'd up videos(the korean)[8D]
OK I will say it lighter and more appropriate. Extreme instead of f'd up. Nice playing [8D]
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 17:21:23)
quote:
ORIGINAL: NashvillePlayer
After some poking around on YouTube I came upon this video which just amazed me. I mean this would be equivalent to me playing a 6 foot long guitar for goodness sakes!
As demonstrated here
tele -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 17:24:47)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
quote:
ORIGINAL: NashvillePlayer
After some poking around on YouTube I came upon this video which just amazed me. I mean this would be equivalent to me playing a 6 foot long guitar for goodness sakes!
As demonstrated here
That is double of "the creepy as hell" part of the title[:)]
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 29 2013 18:19:14
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 17:38:08)
quote:
ORIGINAL: NashvillePlayer
Erik I'm not sure if this is the same little girl or not but Its an equally inspiring performance none the less. When I clicked on the comments section the first one at the top had a good message.
"There are many talented children in every country around the world. You can't understand the pure joy of playing music unless you are a musician. Every child should have the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument. The world would be a much better place."
I would definitely agree with that comment!
So would i :-)
here are a few other musical talents
i don't know how hard it is to play these strings but western harp can be real finger killers.
Miguel de Maria -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 17:57:46)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I love that little Korean girl, too. I am part Korean myself, and I find it so depressingly predictable that any vid with an Asian kid has to get the stereotypical negative comments.
Totally agree, i really hate some of the comments posted in reaction to videos like hers. Do you have any idea if there is more material available of her (lacking korean characters i can't google her original name) or how she's doing?
Erich, Unfortunately, I don't speak Korean either. Although the Korean writing system is remarkably logical and a treasure of the world. Check it out when you have some time.
I did hear somewhere that the girl is grown up and teaching somewhere.
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 19:41:27)
quote:
ORIGINAL: NashvillePlayer
Erik you led a very interesting life as a child musician but its obvious all that hard work paid off and I'm sure you wouldn't trade it for anything.
To be honest, as far as the guitar is involved hard work never was one of my qualities. I only play when i feel like it and even when i force myself to study it only pays of when i really put my heart into it (it's not the amount of time you spent behind the guitar that counts but how well you use that time). As a child/youngster i played quite a lot but only reached a very limited level with it. When i entered Rotterdam Conservatory to study with the very best i could have become fabulous within a couple of years but in stead i played less and less, especially since i became a chess addict, playing chess almost 12/7 for years (without getting real results).
Even when i started to study the guitar a little more seriously it didn't really pay off because i only did it to please the teacher and the clock. But those rare moments in time i really gave it my undivided love and attention i only needed 40 hour of intensive training to learn myself how to play the guitar. But somehow i became bored with it as quickly as i had gained it and soon lost the quality of playing involved. I recharged myself 3 times in the fallowing 3 years and every time i really put my heart into it my way of playing changed dramatically within 40 hours (getting better results then people studying 8 hours a day for years and years). But as soon as i reached perfection i lost interest again simply because there was nothing to learn anymore and i hated the thought of having to repeat those pieces over and over again just to get that totally different approach of playing in my system permanently (that would take a bit more then 40 hours of brain controlled playing, probably mounds of mindless drilling). After 4 tries i decided not to try again and my precent level doesn't even come close.
So i basically wast(ed) the talent i seem to have, although rhythm always remained a weak spot. On the other hand my chess playing "conservatory" years were probably the most enjoyable years in my life (i also became friends with Flairck in that period so i was in close contact with 3 out of 5 of my musical heroes of that period of time (my father, Paco Peña and Flairck....the other 2 were Paco de Lucia and Astor Piazzolla.....when Flairck and Paco de Lucia temporary shared the same record company there were even plans for a united tour but unfortunately that never was realized). So no regrets, although i definitely waste my talents. On the other hand the ability to feed your talent with 1 or 2 hours of undivided love and attention a day is also a talent and that one i unfortunately seem to miss.
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 19:50:04)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
Whoa, don't judge me but those are some f'd up videos(the korean)[8D]
OK I will say it lighter and more appropriate. Extreme instead of f'd up. Nice playing [8D]
Don't worry, i referred to much less likable responses as yours.
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 19:52:29)
This is a golden oldie as well (although old sounds a little bit strange in this case)
tele -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 22 2013 20:12:41)
I think when it comes to the question what is a good age to start playing music it is when the person starts enjoying doing it, be it three or thirty. I can imagine many musicians have children that they would like to teach to play but the children just don't have interest or musical talent. The mini band is a good one:
Erik van Goch -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Jul. 23 2013 14:56:17)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
The mini band is a good one:
I was thinking about posting a video of Zoe myself (the girl playing guitar in the mini band). Here's a random link to her channel.
tele -> RE: What is a good age for kids to start flamenco? (Sep. 30 2013 19:31:03)
Speaking about young talent, does anyone listen to Maria Carrasco of Jerez? She has superb voice.
edit: Shame that the title was changed to "edited"...[8D]
aeolus -> RE: edited (Sep. 30 2013 20:17:04)
In his bio, John Williams is stated to have been begun guitar studies at age 4. By the time he was 12 he was presented to Segovia in his London hotel having achieved a mastery few could match at the time. There is not a word in the book of how his father taught him. He would have started in 1945 in Australia and I think the only guitar tutor of any excellence then was that of Pujol and it was only available in Spanish and French. But let's get serious as to serious ability. This boy is 11 and I have posted here before but in case you missed it.
I, didn't miss it. I believe that I expressed admiration the first time when you posted this and again when you posted him playing the Chaconne.
Williams father certaintly deserves more credit, I think there is a recording of a young Williams aged six around which I have heard.
One note Williams actually studied the Aguado method with his father. Later he credits Alirio Diaz as his teacher.
But maybe Williams wasn't intending to slight his father. He actually seems to have a very very low expectation of the tolerance of the public to the minutia of the craft of music. In public masterclasses he often pitches to the audience and not to the performer.
Seems a shame, anyone who can inspire and support the young to the extent that they achieve so much in a few years than the rest of us manage in a lifetime has my wholehearted admiration.
D.
aeolus -> RE: edited (Sep. 30 2013 21:58:17)
The Australian guitar maker Jeremy Locke wrote of auditing a Williams master class and his conclusion was Williams hated people! He told one player to go home and practice some more and another who proposed to play a movement from a Bach suite, that if he wasn't going to play the whole suite he wasn't going to comment on it. So maybe it was jet lag. But despite being born in Oz, he is veddy English, i.e. a crank despite being very left wing. His major beef with Segovia is Segovia's pretensions to royalty have some how weaseled a marquise-ship out of the Spanish government. The luthier Richard Brune, something of a guitar historian, claims Segovia's father was a famous flamenco player. Given that Segovia was turned over to an aunt and uncle at an early age one might speculate to his parentage. Certainly he fabricated a history when he first burst on the post-war scene with his incomparable recordings claiming his father was a lawyer and he was started in his musical education with a violin teacher. Well Ida Presti also said she was tutored with the Aguado method and both she and Williams comparing notes admitted they had no childhood. So by hook or by crook, the talents bubble to the top. .
Hey....... I heard that Williams beef with Segovia was to do with Segovia's designs on William's mother. Sorry for recycling old gossip.
How many English people (outside of friends episodes) do you know Aeolus.
John Mills quotes Williams advice on how to play faster 'Move your fingers faster'. Perhaps having being taught so young and so well he has little patience or empathy for those who struggle.
D.
aeolus -> RE: edited (Sep. 30 2013 22:22:09)
quote:
John Mills quotes Williams advice on how to play faster 'Move your fingers faster'. Perhaps having being taught so young and so well he has little patience or empathy for those who struggle.
I can certainly appreciate that. there is no reason he should have to deal with those ill prepared.
I only know English from internet connection in film forums. I stand behind my assessment. My great grandfather was English, an alpha male, signing on as a cabin boy at twelve, by 28 the master of a clipper ship, the Wildfire. Unfortunately, I inherited none of his genes.
John Mills quotes Williams advice on how to play faster 'Move your fingers faster'. Perhaps having being taught so young and so well he has little patience or empathy for those who struggle.
I can certainly appreciate that. there is no reason he should have to deal with those ill prepared.
Yet the vast majority of us have had to deal with teachers who were ill prepared to teach.
I often come across students who are struggling with material. I think there is every reason to deal with them. But then I like to help.
I only know English from internet connection in film forums. I stand behind my assessment.
So, as I suspected. none.
As for getting to know people on forums, I suspect that, like me, you don't always get the best out of them.
I don't know a lot about Americans through personal interaction other than online. But I have spent the odd evening with Kurt Vonnegut and some others.
Time for you to move past Evelyn Waugh and Dickens, methinks.
