paracho (Full Version)

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liv -> paracho (Jun. 21 2013 1:25:40)

Hi
Im planing a trip to mexico and wanted to stop
by paracho and check out some guitars,
does anybody here have any direct contact info to fransisco navarro? wanted to call ahead to see when he have any guitars in stock, or does anyone have tips on other luthiers to check out while Im there?

Thank you

/Liv



estebanana -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 2:36:17)

Lease an armored vehicle and a small undercover private army to escort you.

In early April I repaired a guitar for guy who lives in Mexico about 80 kilometers from Paracho. He was in the US signing some papers for his retirement. I asked him why he did not take the guitar back to Mexico and have one of the guys in Paracho work on it. He said he bought this guitar from a known US guitar maker, I knew the maker who is one of the best of the best, and he had in the past taken it to Paracho to have the top repaired. Instead of doing the repair work on the top the guy he took it to replaced the top because he deemed it too thin! It just had a crack. The "repair guy" killed the guitar, but the man could not afford another guitar, he's a really fine player too.

I said why don't you take this guitar it to one of the other guys there who you trust and have them do the top again? He's been in Mexico for many, many years and knows those Paracho guys well. He said I won't go to Paracho anymore, I am afraid of the road between my town and Paracho because there is a narco traficante war going on in that area.

If it were me I would check and double check the routes I would plan to use to travel in Mexico.



JuanDaBomb -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 8:11:25)

So long as you go fitted out like this guy you should be fine...



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BarkellWH -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 10:53:25)

I would not recommend road travel anywhere in Michoacan, the Mexican state where Paracho is located. Paracho is located about 100 kilometers due west of the state capital of Morelia. In fact, I would avoid road travel altogether in Mexico these days.

The US Department of State's Travel Warning for Mexico advises travelers to defer all non-essential travel to the state of Michoacan except the cities of Morelia and Lazaro Cardenas (by aircraft), and one should exercise caution in those two cities. The Travel Warning notes: "Attacks on Mexican government officials, law enforcement and military personnel, and other incidents of TCO-related violence, have occurred throughout Michoacán."

Not worth the risk for a guitar.

Cheers,

Bill



Leñador -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 15:26:13)

I have friends here from Morelia who have family back in Morelia and will not go to visit them due to the danger, and these are brothers, sisters, moms, and dads not distant cousins. I'd be more then weary my friend.



liv -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 15:30:43)

woho, had no clue it would be dangerous to travel there, thanks for that info guys, man I really wanted to check out some of the guitars there, try before I buy. Haven't found one close to San Francisco bay area to check out. Im really curios about the navarro and the castillo guitars.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 18:01:41)

The narco cartel warfare in Michoacan is further complicated in the vicinity of Paracho. Some villages in the hinterlands of Michoacan have been disaffected from the mainstream culture of Mexico since the Spanish conquest in the 16th century. Many were brought into the mainstream by Vasco de Quiroga, the Bishop of Michoacan in the 17th century, but some remained recalcitrant.

I first went to Paracho 56 years ago. I took a taxi from Uruapan. There is a village about halfway between the two. Both going and coming, children stood beside the road and threw rocks at the taxi. It wasn't casual. They scored several telling hits. The cab driver said it happened every time he took that road.

The last time I was in Paracho was in 2006. I drove a rental car. There was no rock throwing, but I was certainly not inclined to stop at that village. It seems less overtly hostile to outsiders, after decades on a main road. But there are villages further out in the sticks that set up roadblocks and charge tolls, or rob travelers. This is in addition to the drug cartel violence.

In 2006 I stayed in a luxurious hotel in Uruapan. I asked the guy on the desk where to go for a drink in the evening. He recommended the Bar Sol y Sombra, at the western edge of downtown. I went. There was a great band, a number of well dressed couples, good drinks, and a few single women willing to dance with an old gringo. A pleasant evening.

A couple of months later I read in the New York Times that a man showed up at the Bar Sol y Sombra one evening with a burlap bag. He rolled five severed human heads out onto the dance floor, and said, "Maybe that will teach you cabrones to play both sides of the fence."

The bartender was quoted as saying, "It pretty well ruined the whole evening."

Check out this foro thread (scroll down the page) for a personal experience of mine in 2010:

http://tinyurl.com/kdp68ow

RNJ



aeolus -> RE: paracho (Jun. 21 2013 21:25:12)

I first visited Paracho in 1952. No problemos than other than not much in way of good guitars or honest dealers(surprise, surprise). I took the bus from Matamoros for the 24 hr. trip requiring stamina! Traveling in Mexico then always rendered a bit of fear in a gringo but if I detected hostility I always got back on the bus. It was part of the charm of the place. As well as Montezuma's revenge. My grandfather ran his step-fathers silver mines in the early part of the 20th century but decided to high tail it out when the revolution started. Nowadays I wouldn't go there for anything and the state department last I heard had. issued a warning. So really nothing new south of the border down Mexico way as Gene Autry used to yodel.. To bad an amazing place and great people (bad guys excepted)



estebanana -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 2:25:21)

quote:

woho, had no clue it would be dangerous to travel there, thanks for that info guys, man I really wanted to check out some of the guitars there, try before I buy. Haven't found one close to San Francisco bay area to check out. Im really curios about the navarro and the castillo guitars.


Go see George at Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange. He has 50 Paracho guitars in his shop right now.

There are a few Castillos in the Bay Area too, but if you PM I can put you in touch with a guitarist in Colorado who brings them in. He's an upstanding guy. There was a minor problem with the finish on the Castillo negra that someone in the Bay Area bought and the fellow in Colorado covered the touch up costs for the buyer. He has a good reputation in my book.

I understand there are places in Mexico that are not high risk for travel, but you better do some research. My uncle and aunt have a bed and breakfast on the Pacific Coast near Acapulco, they don't seem to get into much trouble.



keith -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 8:51:33)

the violence in mexico aside, is the guitar selling to tourists business similar to the stories about spain, that is, the guitars in the store window are the lower end stock and the better stock is hidden or enroute to a dealer/buyer?



Richard Jernigan -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 15:18:43)

I was last in Paracho in December 2006. I visited Carlos Piña, the Rubios, Francisco Navarro, Salvador Castillo, Arturo Huipe and Abel Garcia.

Huipe was the only one who had a first quality guitar available to play. I ended up buying a cedar/cocobolo "Fleta" model for $1800. I would say it is on the borderline between a top end student model and a concert guitar. It is loud, has a good tone, but not as much tonal range as a concert classical.

At Castillo's shop I ran into an American pro flamenco player from Chicago, and his cajon player. He was there to pick up a blanca he had ordered from Castillo, on the recommendation of Richard Brune. He planned to install electronics for gigging. We played the new guitar a bit. It was a good guitar, but didn't really excite me. The front of Castillo's shop opens onto the main drag, and it's not the best place in the world to be trying out a guitar.

Garcia had no guitars available to play, he said at first. I finally wheedled him into letting me play the short scale spruce/Brazilian he made for his daughter. I had heard Carlos Bernal, the Mexican classical player who teaches at a conservatory in Switzerland and concertizes in Europe on a Garcia guitar.

I ended up calling Garcia the next day, and went back to order a spruce/Brazilian classical. I waited 2 1/2 years and paid $4,500. Trilogy guitars in Los Angeles is asking $8,000 for Garcia's instruments these days.

My Garcia is world class. I play it as much as I do my '73 Romanillos. The Romanillos is a better guitar, but not by a huge amount. Garcia studied with Romanillos, attending his course in Spain twice.

The top class luthiers in Paracho, Navarro, Castillo and Garcia are like their peers the world over. It is probably unlikely that you will find one of their best guitars on a casual visit to their shop. In fact you probably won't even get in the door at Garcia's. They have a full list of orders, and their best instruments get shipped out as soon as they are finished.

But a visit to Paracho can be fun, if you don't get killed or kidnapped. You won't find anywhere else where there are as many guitar makers in one place. The output ranges from junk to world class, with all degrees in between.

I might, or might not, take another trip to Paracho in the near future. I speak Spanish fluently, and have travelled all over Mexico for more than forty years. But I wouldn't take responsibility for taking anyone else with me, and I certainly would not recommend traveling in Mexico at present. Things can be going along just fine, and then suddenly the sh1t hits the fan.

RNJ



liv -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 16:30:53)

quote:

Go see George at Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange. He has 50 Paracho guitars in his shop right now.

There are a few Castillos in the Bay Area too, but if you PM I can put you in touch with a guitarist in Colorado who brings them in. He's an upstanding guy. There was a minor problem with the finish on the Castillo negra that someone in the Bay Area bought and the fellow in Colorado covered the touch up costs for the buyer. He has a good reputation in my book.

I understand there are places in Mexico that are not high risk for travel, but you better do some research. My uncle and aunt have a bed and breakfast on the Pacific Coast near Acapulco, they don't seem to get into much trouble.


Yea, I suddenly feel like some research would be a good idea. I was thinking: -Mexico- amazing food, nice people, guitars, oversized hats. But I guess there are other things to consider as well. I did check out some guitars at Georges shop and I will go back there to try out some more (he had so many guitars!) I dont know how those guitars compare with the ones from castillo or navarro..
By the way stephen, that green rosette of yours...thats the most beautiful rosette I've seen.



FredGuitarraOle -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 17:15:01)

A work colleague of my mother made an amazing journey three years ago. He went BY BIKE all the way from Alaska to Patagonia. He made most of the journey all by himself, through the most remote and spectacular places you can imagine. It took him about a year and a half to complete and, as he said, it was the journey of his life.

He created a blog and it was his journal, where he wrote the tales of his adventure and posted some amazing photos. He had no cellphone with him and only updated the blog whenever he had an internet connection along the way.

Anyway, to the point. He made it all the way through Mexico without a single problem. In Colombia (the country he liked the most) he was advised more than once, both by locals and foreigners, to avoid certain roads because of the extremely high risks. Avoiding those roads would force him to make big detours. He took that chance more than one time and always made it through without the slightest trouble. Amazingly, the only place were he had problems and feared for his safety was in the United States.

I'm not trying to say it is safe to travel through Mexico and I'm perfectly aware of all those dangers you guys are talking about. What I'm saying is that the way you travel through such places makes all the diference.

By the way, I'm also not saying that someone should visit Mexico by bike. I just wrote this because I thought it would be interesting to show another perpesctive on traveling through complicated places.



aeolus -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 18:01:14)

Yeah, using the Pan American Highway it would be a piece of cake. But at some point you have to leave it. There was no Pan Am highway when I was traveling and I had to hack my way through with a machete.

Michoacán: Morelia is a major city/travel destination in Michoacán -see attached map to identify its exact location: You should defer non-essential travel to the state of Michoacán except the cities of Morelia and Lázaro Cardenas where you should exercise caution. Flying into Morelia and Lázaro Cardenas, or driving to Lázaro Cardenas via highway 200 from Zihuatanejo/Ixtapa, are the recommended methods of travel. Attacks on Mexican government officials, law enforcement and military personnel, and other incidents of TCO-related violence, have occurred throughout Michoacán.
State Department briefing.



Escribano -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 18:28:21)

My wife is Mexican and she's asking for the very latest from her friends there, but I suspect it will be the same advice that you are already getting.

It wasn't such a big deal when I was touring in 2007 but the narcos have screwed everything up.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 19:03:00)

I traveled several thousand miles by motorcycle in Mexico over a period of several years. My last motorcycle trip in Mexico was a long time ago, so I'm not claiming what I'm about to say is still the case.

You used to get a lot more personal interaction with the average Mexican when you traveled by motorcycle. A well dressed tourist traveling by car was regarded as a member of an exploitative social class. People didn't imagine you would travel by motorcycle if you could afford a car. So arriving on a bike usually got a more open and friendly reaction from the average person.

But Mexico now is far more dangerous than it was years ago. As I said, things can go great for quite a while, then suddenly you can end up dead like the Dutch kid in the link I posted earlier in this thread.

It breaks my heart. The great majority of Mexicans are wonderful, friendly people. The food, the architecture, the history, the scenery, the music, the lifestyle in general hold many, many pleasant memories for me. But I'm reluctant to go now.

RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: paracho (Jun. 22 2013 19:35:03)

quote:

I'm not trying to say it is safe to travel through Mexico and I'm perfectly aware of all those dangers you guys are talking about. What I'm saying is that the way you travel through such places makes all the diference.


I understand what your driving at, Fred, and I appreciate your observation that how one travels can make a difference. (Although I wouldn't go so far as to say it "makes all the difference.") I was on a temporary, three-month assignment for the U.S. State Department at the U.S. Embassy in Bogota, Colombia in 2000, when Colombia was the kidnapping capital of the world. The FARC guerrillas had a deal with ordinary criminals in South Bogota, which was a very dangerous part of the city. Ordinary criminals would kidnap both Colombians and foreigners in South Bogota, then they would take them to a point about 25 kilometers south of Bogota and turn them over to the FARC guerrillas for a sum of cash. The FARC would then transport the kidnapped victims to their jungle headquarters and demand a ransom from their families and employers.

The situation today is much better in Colombia, and it was better three years ago when your mother's colleague made the trip, than it was when I was serving in Bogota. Nevertheless, it is still dangerous in certain areas, just as Mexico is very dangerous in most areas for travel by land transportation. I would say that your mother's colleague was very lucky. Part of his traveling unscathed was no doubt due to traveling relatively inconspicuously on his bike, i.e., not standing out in a crowd. Nevertheless, quite a few Americans have been kidnapped for ransom, and some have been simply killed outright to make a statement, and they were picked up while inconspicuously traveling on roads, particularly in the state of Sinaloa. Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa, has the second highest number of narco cartel killings in Mexico.

What I'm driving at is that there will always be some who chance it and make it through with no problem. But luck has a lot to do with it. Your mother's colleague might have traveled through areas at a time when there were no planned kidnappings or killings. But he just as easily could have traveled in an area where the narcotraficantes had decided to pick up the next gringo they found, kill him, and put his head on a pike, just to show that they could do so with impunity and the Mexican authorities could do nothing about it. It has happened, and it will happen again. I would not want to entrust my life with the moods and plans of the narcotraficantes on any particular day I might be passing through their territory.

Cheers,

Bill



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 22 2013 21:21:15)

[Deleted by Admins]



estebanana -> RE: paracho (Jun. 23 2013 1:55:54)

When I was Jr. high 13 or 14 years old I used to tag along with the older guys on the high school water polo team to got to Mexico to surf. We crossed the border at TJ and drove down to the famous surf spots like K-38 and small wonderful beaches south of Rosarito.

We ate lobster and fish tacos for lunch, surfed to our hearts content and it was all forbidden by my mother. She told me time after time she did not want me to go to Mexico to surf.

The usual program was the Federales would pull up in a truck at the beach parking lot, really just a dirt patch over looking the ocean. They would line us up by the side of our vehicle and tell us we were no good hippie drug addicts and that we had drugs with us. " "You have long hair, you have drugs!"They would search the station wagon while one flunky held us teen age boys at bay holding an M-16. One of the older surfer guys would say "Ok we are dropping off the case of toilet paper and box of canned food to the Rosarito orphanage on your way out and that we are good kids from up north really just out for a day of surfing." The older Federal Police officer usually in his 50's would say "Ok you go today have fun. We will check to see if you drop off comidas." I'm sure they never checked. Sometimes with other fellows who looked rougher than us they planted a joint in the car and extracted money on the spot.

Surfers were good income between San Miguel and the border so they never wanted to scare them away, but every once in a while they took a guy to jail and ransomed them. A lawyer would have to drive down from the US and pay out big cash to get them out of jail. Usually that happened when a stupid gringo got drunk in TJ and pissed on the street outside the bar.

That happened in one in five trips or so. I consider that fair and innocent shake down behavior by the police by todays standards. Sometime in those days the boys in the band had to collect 20 bucks to give them as safe passage fee. The Federales working the coast in those days just considered a few bucks from surfers the price of admission and they were not too abusive. Those were fun times and I love Mexico, but yep it's sad to see how conditions have changed.



pvrfederico -> RE: paracho (Nov. 9 2014 5:31:29)

I was in Paracho last week (for the second time this year). I bought two guitars from Benito Huipe and one from Salvador Castillo. I drove for 10 straight hours to return to my home in Puerto Vallarta. I used the libre (free) road through the mountain towns of Michoacan. There in no problems near Paracho. Like most information about Paracho on this site and others, the comments are inaccurate. A person is perfectly safe to drive from Guadalajara or Morelia to Paracho.



Ricardo -> RE: paracho (Nov. 10 2014 19:37:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pvrfederico

I was in Paracho last week (for the second time this year). I bought two guitars from Benito Huipe and one from Salvador Castillo. I drove for 10 straight hours to return to my home in Puerto Vallarta. I used the libre (free) road through the mountain towns of Michoacan. There in no problems near Paracho. Like most information about Paracho on this site and others, the comments are inaccurate. A person is perfectly safe to drive from Guadalajara or Morelia to Paracho.


Oh sure we are supposed to believe that? Clever ruse. It's obvious you and your gang are just waiting with your road block to kidnap some naive rich gringos bent on the ultimate guitar deal.



BarkellWH -> RE: paracho (Nov. 11 2014 18:42:40)

quote:

Oh sure we are supposed to believe that? Clever ruse. It's obvious you and your gang are just waiting with your road block to kidnap some naive rich gringos bent on the ultimate guitar deal.


And that assumes his luck will hold out, and he won't get caught in the cross fire between narcotraficantes, the army, and local militias, many instances of which have been documented.

Bill



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