Cante - What's it all about? (Full Version)

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Romanza -> Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 13:03:32)

Just another query as I continue my journey into flamenco... At first it was the guitar that got me hooked, but now i've been listening to more cante, and am so intrigued by the voices, with their amazing power and emotion. But what are they singing about - is there a common theme? I know a bit about the history of flamenco, but are all the songs based on flamenco itself, or other themes such as love etc. For example, the beautiful singing of Tomatito's daughter on Pa La Pimpi (Paseo de los Castaños) - it sounds so haunting and touching, yet I have no idea what is being sung about. Translated into English I suspect it would not have quite the same affect!!



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 14:11:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romanza
But what are they singing about - is there a common theme?


There are up to 50 palos, and the theme often depends on the palo, for instance Carceleras are prison songs, Tarantas are mining songs, Martinete originated from the blacksmith's forge and Caracoles as the song of the snail vendor and frequently refer to Madrid, but generally all the themes are about love, death and lament. The Petenara ( oops spits and turns round three times to avoid the evil eye) is of Jewish origin and date back to the inquisition and often has a religious theme. The Fandango is said to be Moorish. Granainos are often in praise of Granada. Many songs have hidden political or Gypsy meanings as well. And I have heard many many songs in praise of mothers.

In todays flamenco there are also more modern references, for instance Mayte Martin wrote a song which mentions e-mail and Tomasito sings of a Martian Robot [:D]

I know what you mean when you say that you love the song without understanding it. The other day I was translating a Beatles song for a Spanish friend, who laughed so much to finally know what it was about.

Translating songs is fun but learning enough Spanish to understand them is even better.

Kate



Romanza -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 14:23:50)

Very interesting thanks! Oh dear, the influence of technology gets everywhere! Thinking about it, I suppose some flamenco songs are also tributes to people, e.g to other flamenco artists, family members etc - thinking of PDL's 'A la Perla de Cadiz' which I seem to recall is about a female flamenco singer, and Antonia / Luzia etc.



Doitsujin -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 14:41:09)

hmmm cante. A special thing. I like the cante, but not all. Much cante is too hard for me. It often molests more than I can enjoy it.
The lyrics are often mega bad... ok I didnt translate much but these coplas which I know are funny. But involuntary funny.

"I loved you so much, now you have no hair anymore, now I dont love you anymore..."
When I hear such a copla I have to vomit.

I hear the cante not coz I love the lyrics. I hear cante coz of the expression. Often a good aaaayy is much better than I degenerated text from a good singer but a bad poet. So I enjoy it but dont understand 90%. For example I can enjoy a martinete from Agujetas but I dont understand only one word, his expression is amazing. Lyrics are not important for me, coz cante is music and I enjoy the music. Im not very interested in the texts. Only melody and expression. If Im crazy on good poems or texts, I would allways prefer a good book or real poets. The flamenco coplas are not poems for me, and no good texts. sorry.
But maybe its my way of listening to all music. I have never put attention on texts in pop music, too. I cant understand why a lyric is so important in music?? Lyrics and tributes are not music.

I hope I wasnt too hard for somebody here.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 14:41:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romanza
Very interesting thanks! Oh dear, the influence of technology gets everywhere! Thinking about it, I suppose some flamenco songs are also tributes to people, e.g to other flamenco artists, family members etc


Yes, definitely.

Also, get yourself a copy of Saura's Flamenco film -superb collection of flamenco artists, old and new, examples of baile/cante/toque ensemble and solo, the lot...

Beautifully shot, and you get translations of a lot of the cante which reveals more common themes.



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 15:11:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Romanza
I suppose some flamenco songs are also tributes to people


One night at the peña of El Nino de las Almendras he sang a song for us, obviously making it up as he went along which went something like " Aye, aye, aye, Kate and Harold sold their home in London, aye aye aye they made so much money they came to the Albaicin and bought a palace " I was laughing my head off. And just for the record we do not live in a palace !!

Kate



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 15:19:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
Also, get yourself a copy of Saura's Flamenco film -superb collection of flamenco artists, old and new, examples of baile/cante/toque ensemble and solo, the lot...

Beautifully shot, and you get translations of a lot of the cante which reveals more common themes.


I agree that this film is an excellent introduction to many of todays flamenco artists and all the styles. However I agree with Robin Totton on this when he says that the film is staged in such a way that the feel of flamenco is sacrificed. Still I prefer this to trying to get a corny campfire feel.

I know I've reccommended it before but I will say again that Robin's book ' Song of The Outcasts" is excellent containing many examples of lyrics and explanations of flamenco's evolution and various styles, as well as personal stories.

Kate



Jon Boyes -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 15:47:41)

Kate, I have a few more questions on cante, would be great to get your input:

What is the (very rough) proportion of improvised lyrics vs written lyrics in flamenco?

Are traditional/pre-written lyrics generally confined to specific palos?

Amongst flamencos, how important are the actual quality of the lyrics vs the way in the which they are sung? To pick up on Doitsujin's point, I could be watching someone belting out some powerful cante with a tortured expression on their face, only to find out they are singing about a lemonade seller who's run out of lemonade or something. You know what I mean? Taking Saura's colection as a starting point there's nothing lyrically speaking I would describe as particularly profound, and a lot of material that seems almost child like in its simplicity. Is something being lost in translation, or is the lyical content secondary to the harmony, power, soul etc that the cantaor/cantaora puts into it?

No offence meant, of course, I am just trying to get a better handle on cante from a flamenco's perspective.



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 16:14:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes

What is the (very rough) proportion of improvised lyrics vs written lyrics in flamenco?



I haven't got a clue mate. From what I understand even traditional songs are often changed according to the singer or the moment or the village. Then again even improvised songs would be passed down from ear and changes would naturally occur. In the studio flamencos like any other musician can improvise a song which would then be written down.

Perhaps Estela or other more experienced people here would have an idea. Look forward to hearing more. I enjoy the cante discussions, makes a change from guitar talk [;)]

kate



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 16:28:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
To pick up on Doitsujin's point, I could be watching someone belting out some powerful cante with a tortured expression on their face, only to find out they are singing about a lemonade seller who's run out of lemonade or something. You know what I mean? Taking Saura's colection as a starting point there's nothing lyrically speaking I would describe as particularly profound, and a lot of material that seems almost child like in its simplicity. Is something being lost in translation, or is the lyical content secondary to the harmony, power, soul etc that the cantaor/cantaora puts into it?


Its a question of perspective. For a Gypsy lemonade seller with a large family to feed running out of lemons would be a tragedy, no money, no food, hunger and death. I remember a Guardian reviewer who claimed Sauras film was a bunch of toothless old men singing about oranges. He totally missed the point. So much they sing about is symbolic. Ask Simon how it was in his village when the orange harvest was lost last winter. We may find the lyrics simple and child like but underneath there are profundities that we miss, as well as secondary and sometimes even personal meanings.

The kids from the Taller sing a song about a chicken under their Grandmother's bed. They have nothing to feed the chicken so the chicken cries. Of course it goes without saying that they have nothing to eat either. It is like a nursery rhyme and sung with gusto. The noise of the chicken kirikirikiri and the noise the Grandmothers empty stomach makes, as she farts. It is funny but also tragic. They sang it at a school in Chicago for mostly hispanic children and they squealed with delight, understanding not only the lyrics but the poverty.

Kate



XXX -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 17:35:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
I hear the cante not coz I love the lyrics. I hear cante coz of the expression. Often a good aaaayy is much better than I degenerated text from a good singer but a bad poet. So I enjoy it but dont understand 90%. For example I can enjoy a martinete from Agujetas but I dont understand only one word, his expression is amazing. Lyrics are not important for me, coz cante is music and I enjoy the music. Im not very interested in the texts. Only melody and expression. If Im crazy on good poems or texts, I would allways prefer a good book or real poets. The flamenco coplas are not poems for me, and no good texts. sorry.
But maybe its my way of listening to all music. I have never put attention on texts in pop music, too. I cant understand why a lyric is so important in music?? Lyrics and tributes are not music.



100% my word.

When im looking for lyrics, im not interested in the content or the style of the writing, im more interested in expieriencing how the singer transformed the pronounciation of the letters/words in order to make it sound good melodically.

I also have this attitude in any other kind of music may it be pop, rock, trip-hop ...

But lyrics in Flamenco are different since they have a strong connection to the life of the (poor) people. As a "middle-european" i am far away from this living reality of the texts.



Guest -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 19:20:07)

Dos gemelos me ha dado a mi Dios
Francisco Javier y Alejandro
dos gemelos me ha dado a mi Dios
y son un verdadero encanto
esos dos hijos de mi corazon
por eso yo los quiero tanto

Juan Silva, Por Cai, 1999 (por fandangos)

Quite personal and meaningful I should think.

Sean



Jon Boyes -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 20:27:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
We may find the lyrics simple and child like but underneath there are profundities that we miss, as well as secondary and sometimes even personal meanings.


Thanks for that. Would be good to read more cante threads in FF, if only so us middle class payo bozos could get a better handle on this stuff [:D]



Escribano -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 20:38:44)

quote:

And just for the record we do not live in a palace !!


Yes, it is. I have seen it; albeit a narrow one[:D]



Escribano -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 20:45:29)

quote:

Ask Simon how it was in his village when the orange harvest was lost last winter


Well, as my name cropped up[;)] You make a good point, Kate. One I hadn't even thought of in terms of Flamenco. The farmers got 2/3s of the crop value back from the government - so their salary is down 1/3.

This year, it is still too warm; the oranges are turning early and the flies are destroying them.



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 21:05:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
Quite personal and meaningful I should think.

Sean


Simply beautiful.

Kate



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 21:06:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
The farmers got 2/3s of the crop value back from the government - so their salary is down 1/3.



And the workers that would have picked the oranges had no work.

Kate



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 21:08:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

And just for the record we do not live in a palace !!


Yes, it is. I have seen it; albeit a narrow one[:D]



Je je je how many palaces have you been in Simon ? I guess you could call it a Hobbits palace. For very small people. [:D]

Kate



Guest -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 7 2005 21:43:44)

How about:

Reloj de arena es tu cuerpo
te abrazo por la cintura
para que se detenga el tiempo

(por soleá)



Ryan002 -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 2:34:47)

Quite a bit of culture shock that. I think we Urbanites don't exactly realize how important an orange harvest or whatever can be to many people until it's put into perspective. What's important though is that we still feel the sadness emanating from the song, even if we are out of touch with the context. I guess music transcends language and culture that way.

I don't think the meaning of the words is as important as they way they are sung. Lyrics used in music, especially cante, are more like the words used by poets than the words used by writers. The harmonic resonance, rhyme, consonance, etc. of the word is what counts, not simply what the word signifies. I find it odd that contemporary music is not subject to the criticism of "bad lyrics" whereas Flamenco is. Consider an Oasis song for example: "Someday you will find me caught between a landslide, and a champagne supernova in the sky."

Honestly, the lemon song makes more sense. [:D]



Romanza -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 8:35:32)

quote:

I know I've reccommended it before but I will say again that Robin's book ' Song of The Outcasts" is excellent containing many examples of lyrics and explanations of flamenco's evolution and various styles, as well as personal stories.


Kate this book just arrived from Amazon and I spent the bus journey to work today engrossed, it gives a really good insight.



Guest -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 10:14:40)

Here is a letra you could never understand, without appreciating the culture it comes from:

En un verde prado
tendí mi pañuelo
salieron tres rosas
como tres luceros

(Alboreá)



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 10:37:02)

This post refers to the letras Sean posted about the birth of twins.

Great example of personal letras and all the more powerful because of that. Another aspect of cante is that the culture it comes from has different values than us. Now I am not saying that we dont appreciate and celebrate the birth of twins but it all comes from a different angle. They express more. The only example I can give is personal. I dont have children and in the UK this would be accepted with little more than curiosity or a shrug of the shoulders and an awkward laugh maybe telling me I am lucky. When the Gitano community asked about my children and heard I was childless they simply and very genuinely wept for me.

To return to the songs, they are themes we all know well, love, desire, hate, vengeance but the values behind these emotions come from a community with a different sense of honor and values and knowing these adds to understanding of the songs.

The following letras were written by one of the mothers of the Taller children as a warning to the girls about forbidden love and to respect their fathers, ie no messing around girls.

Trabili, trabili, tran, tran, tran,
amores que son prohibidos
levántate tempranito
que mi padre está dormido
espéreme tu gitano
en la orillita del río.
Trabili, trabili...
Tratármelo con cariño
con respeto y con dulzura
que ese gitano es mi padre
y mi gran mayor fortuna.
Tribili, tribili...

This following song is 'popular' and is about the loss of respect due to stepping outside of the bounds of what is appropiate in the Gitano culture. The final line subtly reveals the girl concerned will now be considered a prostitute. "On getting on the boat, the boatman tells me, pretty girls dont pay with money ".


Que por la mancha que llevo en la frente
murmura la gente que soy pecadora
mientras yo me metía en mi pecho
mientras que en mi pecho la traición me llora.
No me digas que soy ingrata,
que a mi la traición me hiere
quien dice que los amores matan,
y otros amores que mueren
al pasar la barca, me dijo el barquero
las niñas bonitas, no pagan dinero.

I've not translated this because I reckon those interested are willing to work a bit to learn more Spanish, but any questions just ask.

Kate



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 10:43:53)

How beautiful Sean, its almost like a haiku in its simplicity. Pure poetry.

Kate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
Reloj de arena es tu cuerpo
te abrazo por la cintura
para que se detenga el tiempo

(por soleá)



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 10:57:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Here is a letra you could never understand, without appreciating the culture it comes from:

En un verde prado
tendí mi pañuelo
salieron tres rosas
como tres luceros

(Alboreá)


According to Robin Totton's book there was an outrage in the Gitano community that this Wedding song should have been recorded. When Farruquito married there was an article in The Telegraph which shocked me by its inaccuracy, as it claimed the female guests were invited to take part in this ceremony and 'extract blood' from the bride. The report also said that Farruquito forced his bride to do this and talked about the humiliation of the ceremony which is simply not true, far from being humiliated the girls are proud and the family is honoured. Farruquito's bride was said to have four roses !! Extra virgin !! ( sorry bad joke) [&:]

Kate



Skai -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 11:19:28)

Speaking of learning Spanish, I'm still stuck at saying 'hello' and introducing myself. Oh yeah, I think I'm able to tell people 'I don't understand' too, really useful I must add. [:(]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 19:14:34)

quote:

I've not translated this because I reckon those interested are willing to work a bit to learn more Spanish, but any questions just ask.



Come on, Kate... its not fair to keep us in suspense like that! [:D] What has the pretty girl done?!!

I did win a Spanish dictionary as 3rd prize in a primary school art contest, but I can't seem to find it now. [:(]



Guest -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 21:21:58)

Here is a (loose) translation of the alboréa.

In a green meadow
I laid out my handkerchief
it showed three roses
like three bright stars

As you can see, it is just as meaningless in English, without an understanding of gitano culture.

Sean

(I have never been good at translation, this is work for Estela!)



Guest -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 8 2005 21:35:00)

Good fun, a cante thread[:D]

Quisiera volverme yedra
y subir por las paredes
y penetrar en tu habitacion
para ver lo bonito que eres

I want to turn myself into ivy
and climb up the walls
and enter your room
to see how beautiful you are

(bulerías de Cádiz)

Sean



Kate -> RE: Cante - What's it all about? (Nov. 9 2005 11:25:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate

Trabili, trabili, tran, tran, tran,
amores que son prohibidos
levántate tempranito
que mi padre está dormido
espéreme tu gitano
en la orillita del río.
Trabili, trabili...
Tratármelo con cariño
con respeto y con dulzura
que ese gitano es mi padre
y mi gran mayor fortuna.
Tribili, tribili...


Trabili, trabili, tran, tran, tran,
Forbidden lovers
You must rise early
My father is sleeping
wait for me, Gypsy
by the banks of the river.
Trabili, trabili...
Treat me with care
with respect and with sweetness
as that Gypsy is my father
and my biggest best fortune.
Tribili, tribili...


Kate



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