RE: Examples of good English. (Full Version)

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BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 1:35:21)

quote:

On the subject of Moby Dick (which I haven't read) Cormack McCarthy's Blood Meridian has one of the most powerful scenes of graphic horror I have ever read.


I really enjoyed Cormac McCarthy's "Border Trilogy": All the Pretty Horses, The Crossing, and Cities of the Plain. I was gripped by Blood Meridian and consider it his best, even with the graphic horror of the scalp hunters and their journey. But I was not particularly taken by his later novels, The Road and No Country for Old Men. I just didn't think the writing or the stories rose to the level of the Trilogy and Blood Meridian.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 3:16:47)

quote:

I have in my library (yes, actual bound books, not a Kindle or a Nook) all of Graham Greene's novels and short story collection. Additionally, I have always enjoyed and keep Lawrence Durrell's novels, particularly "The Alexandria Quartet." Good espionage novels by John LeCarre, Alan Furst, and Eric Ambler. The short stories of Somerset Maugham, particularly those set in Malaya and the Far East.

For entertaining and thought-provoking reading, however, nothing beats the short stories of the Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges.


I'm down with Greene, Durell, Maugham, Le Carre', Borges.....

I would add Bolan~o, Luisa Valenzuela, Jane and Paul Bowles.

In fact one of the books I brought to Japan is Paul Bowles complete short stories. I read them in the 1980's and kept the book all this time. Bowles is not a major figure, but he's an odd man out, like an American ex pat Kafka; he's surreal by turing an ordinary situation into a strange dream. I did not make the pick consciously as I was in too much of a hurry when I picked books to ship out, so I think my selections were very gut level, not cerebrally meditated on. Bowles lived outside the US for most of this life and was a composer and a writer, he was able to carry on dialogs with the avant garde in both music and literature while moving all over the world. I think I picked that book because he seemed self contained artistically and did not need to be around other artists constantly. My choice was in part because I want to reread him and evaluate it with a more mature sense of writing, but also simply because he ventured out away from the US and did not write about America. I realized all this as I opened the box of books and took out the selections I made six weeks ago.

quote:

Then of course there’s Tolkien, who wrote some of the most beautiful English I’ve ever seen — although it apparently sets not a few people’s teeth on edge, to judge by some of the reviews.


Tolkien was a fabulous writer. I love his works and I reread the Lord of the Rings every five years. I'll tell you what, each time I'm amazed by how powerful a descriptive writer he is. I've known many, many heavy professional literary people who either completely ignore Tolkien or embrace him, not many seem to be in the middle. My step mom a writer says she does not like stories in which animals talk. I never have the heart or want to reveal how geeky I am by telling her that talking Orcs are really fallen Elves that Sauron twisted into evil creatures to serve his destructive will. She just would not understand.


quote:

In SF, we have Ray Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles, IMO the best-written of the great 1950's SF novels


Yep.

quote:

hat about Saki (the writer, not the beverage )


Sake drinks well, Saki writes well. [:D]



estebanana -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 3:37:45)

Just think of all the freedom we now have to bookchat about a whole new batch of writers that only yesterday where not Foro topic fare:

Emily Dickenson
Charles Dickens

We can talk about Morey Amsterdam who wrote for the Dick Van Dyke show.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 8:23:17)

I never tried to read No Country for Old Men, but I thought the movie was excellent.

RNJ



guitarbuddha -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 8:52:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Just think of all the freedom we now have to bookchat about a whole new batch of writers that only yesterday where not Foro topic fare:

Emily Dickenson
Charles Dickens

We can talk about Morey Amsterdam who wrote for the Dick Van Dyke show.


Yeah always room for one more **** in the discussion.

D.
[:)]



edguerin -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 9:57:25)

quote:

Graham Greene's novels and short story collection. Additionally, I have always enjoyed and keep Lawrence Durrell's novels

Greene is great. And not to be forgotten: Durell's younger brother Gerald, with
- among lots of others - My Family and Other Animals and Birds, Beasts and Relatives

quote:

Kind of P.G. Wodehouse like

Wodehouse is amusing but nowhere near Saki as far as true wit (and of course sarcasm) is concerned.

quote:

Sake drinks well, Saki writes well

oops! Sake drinks well, Saki writes well, but also climbs well [;)]



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 12:50:45)

quote:

In fact one of the books I brought to Japan is Paul Bowles complete short stories. I read them in the 1980's and kept the book all this time. Bowles is not a major figure, but he's an odd man out, like an American ex pat Kafka; he's surreal by turing an ordinary situation into a strange dream. I did not make the pick consciously as I was in too much of a hurry when I picked books to ship out, so I think my selections were very gut level, not cerebrally meditated on. Bowles lived outside the US for most of this life and was a composer and a writer, he was able to carry on dialogs with the avant garde in both music and literature while moving all over the world. I think I picked that book because he seemed self contained artistically and did not need to be around other artists constantly. My choice was in part because I want to reread him and evaluate it with a more mature sense of writing, but also simply because he ventured out away from the US and did not write about America. I realized all this as I opened the box of books and took out the selections I made six weeks ago.


Paul Bowles was unique among American writers. He lived in Tangier for many years, and was both a writer and composer. (Aaron Copland was one of his friends.) For what its worth, Bowles and his wife Jane were both bi-sexual, and although they maintained a marital link, each took lovers of both genders. I think Bowles' first published novel, "The Sheltering Sky," is still his best work. I took it with me on a trip to Hawaii two years ago to re-read it, as I had read it decades ago and wanted to see if it still resonated with me. It did. It is a tale of a young American couple who travel around North Africa with little understanding of the culture in which they find themselves. It is a stark, sometimes bleak, story of existential despair and ultimate tragedy that would do justice to Camus.

I'm betting that you will appreciate Bowles this time around as much as, or more than, you did the first time, Stephen.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 13:29:38)

The forward to the edition of Bowles stories I have is written by Gore Vidal, another fav of mine. Gore says Bowles does not come from the American tradition of writing that that he is descended more from French symbolist poets, he states Bowles writes as if Moby Dick had never been written. It makes sense and I agree he can give Camus a run for his money. His autobiography is kind of pretentious, Without Stopping, but as a document that gives light to what he experienced and how that effected his work it's worth scanning.

I don't like some of the senseless violence in this work, but it goes along with what he writes about. I do like the subtle ways he takes normal situations and makes them have a sinister or creepy, forbodeing or surreal edge. I like that he's unsentimental, I can only stand a bit of sentimental writing. If he has fault, in my opinion, it's that in some cases he goes through with the violent act instead of alluding to it and letting it be there unsaid.

Speaking of spelling things out; There was this one novel I read in the late '90's called Vox and another called Fermata by Nicholson Baker. The themes are about phone sex and weird sex, but he describes the sex acts in such detail they cease to be pornographic. In Fermata a Berkeley house wife watering her back lawn convinces a high school girl and her boyfriend to have a really kinky sex with her in public in the back yard while she continues to use the hose to water the lawn and includes the water in the sex. It is so farfetched, outrageous and described in such a odd way that it does not work as porn... but still sort of hot.

Bowles' wife Jane was an even better writer, but she destroyed herself through drinking. She had an Arab woman as her lover while she lived with Paul, they all three lived together at times. Too complex for me. All that estrogen and hijab intrigue under one roof..oh too much.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 17:15:59)

quote:

although they maintained a marital link, each took lovers of both genders.


Since the topic is Examples of good English:

Am I the only one here who would prefer it if gender weren’t used as a euphemism for sex?

As I understand, the use of the former arose so as to have a means of classifying people such as those who feel themselves to be a woman trapped in a man’s body, and so forth.

That’s fair enough. But now it’s become just one more redundant vogue-word when there was already a perfectly serviceable one, and — more importantly — it’s blurred the usage for which it was originally coined.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 17:27:41)

quote:

I never have the heart or want to reveal how geeky I am by telling her that talking Orcs are really fallen Elves that Sauron twisted into evil creatures to serve his destructive will.


Are you sure she was referring to Orcs? To the casual reader, Orcs are just one more sentient race, along with Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Trolls and the rest (Stone Giants?).

Maybe she’s thinking of the Eagles (or of Roäc son of Carc, the Raven).

BTW Is that an F-94 Starfire in your picture, Stephen? What’s its significance?



Paul Magnussen -> [Deleted] (Jun. 1 2013 17:35:48)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 1 2013 17:36:12



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 18:01:52)

quote:

Since the topic is Examples of good English: Am I the only one here who would prefer it if gender weren’t used as a euphemism for sex?


Since the topic is "Examples of Good English," You may be the only one here who does not recognize that "gender" and "sex" are synonymous.

From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition, 1993:

"SEX (as in the feminine gender)."

Cheers,

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 18:23:39)

quote:

Since the topic is "Examples of Good English," You may be the only one here who does not recognize that "gender" and "sex" are synonymous.


If that’s the case, it makes nonsense of the coinage I mentioned in my previous post, and a useful distinction is lost.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 18:54:41)

One further note on the use of the term "gender. " Anyone who has ever studied Spanish will recall that Spanish nouns all have a "gender," either feminine or masculine. In a very few cases either the feminine or masculine gender may apply. For example, "el mar" (masculine for "the sea") is commonly used when referring to the sea. There are times, however, when "la mar" (feminine for "the sea") is perfectly acceptable when the sea is referred to in a poetic context.

In any case, the term "gender," whether referring to human beings or to Spanish nouns, means male (masculine) or female (feminine), i.e., sex.

Cheers,

Bill



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 19:27:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnusse

BTW Is that an F-94 Starfire in your picture, Stephen? What’s its significance?


Looks to me more like the T-33 trainer, from which the F-94 was developed. The exhaust nozzle of the F-94 protrudes further behind the tail section. A little hard to tell from the photo, though.

Air Force brat here. My first ride in a jet was in a T-33, with my father at the controls. We were over the Chesapeake Bay/Maryland Eastern Shore area. He said, "Orient yourself, then we'll pull a few maneuvers."

After the maneuvers he asked me which way was north. I said I was having a hard time telling which way was up.

Last year we got taken for rides over the same area in my high school buddy Bill Finagin's Pitts Special. Bill is a retired 2-star admiral, a Pitts dealer, and one of about 20 members of the International Aerobatic Club's Hall of Fame. He's the same age as I am, 75, and does about 40 stunt flying air shows per year.

The Pitts is a prop-driven miniature biplane, with amazing aerobatic performance.

Back to English.....

RNJ



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 20:52:40)

quote:

In any case, the term "gender," whether referring to human beings or to Spanish nouns, means male (masculine) or female (feminine), i.e., sex.


Grammatical gender is only incidentally connected to sex. For example, in German a girl (Mädchen) is neuter.

Don’t you remember Mark Twain’s essay on the subject?

Gretchen: Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm: She is in the kitchen.
Gretchen: Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm: It has gone to the opera.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 21:06:27)

Indeed, German nouns can be feminine, masculine, or neuter. But the German language presents all sorts of interesting challenges, such as the infinite verb placed at the end of a sentence that may already have three clauses preceding it.

In any case, back to Mark Twain and his thoughts on the German language. One that I particularly like is, "I'd rather decline two drinks than one German adjective."

Cheers,

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 21:20:43)

quote:

Last year we got taken for rides over the same area in my high school buddy Bill Finagin's Pitts Special.


I’m envious. First time a saw a Pitts Special was at the King’s Cup Air Race in England when I was a schoolboy, and the Lockheed Aerobatic Trophy was at the same event.

Some American bloke did six beautiful consecutive barrel-rolls in what seemed like three seconds.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 22:40:28)

When we got out over the Eastern Shore, Bill said over the intercom, "OK, ready for a loop?"

"Sure."

5 g's. In a little prop driven biplane. Gasp.

At the Confederate Air Force show some time in the 1980s, the five Red Devils, who fly Pitts, took off in formation. As soon as they cleared the ground, they cut on the smoke and all did a snap roll together, about 15 feet off the ground. My mother and father were seated on the front row of the reviewing stand, I was right behind. A few minutes into the Red Devils' show the gray haired woman next to my mother leaned over and said, "I'm glad my husband is not up there with those fools."

My mother, by then in her 70s, sat for a few moments, then replied, "I would like to be up there with them."

This is on the way back from Dad and his partner Carl Crawford doing a stunt flying show at the fair at Fredericksburg, 1941. I'm the little guy...



RNJ

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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 1 2013 23:00:49)

A little more up to date--Larisa and the Pitts S-2C in one of Bill's hangars last year. Larisa is about 5' 7" (170 cm), so you can see how tiny the Pitts is:



Now, back to English, really, I promise.....

RNJ

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estebanana -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 0:33:41)

T-33

We pulled off the main expressway to check out a tip I had about a lumber dealer, I did not find the dealer but we kept driving because I liked the road. Soon I spotted the T-33 and could not resist getting out and looking it over.

Lockheed licensed the T-33 to be built in Japan in the 1950's, this is one of them.



mark indigo -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 11:42:27)

quote:

Since the topic is Examples of good English: Am I the only one here who would prefer it if gender weren’t used as a euphemism for sex?

Since the topic is "Examples of Good English," You may be the only one here who does not recognize that "gender" and "sex" are synonymous.


the words "sex" and "gender" are not, as far as I know, synonymous, although the distinction may be subtle. Sex refers to the physical male and female, and gender to the qualities of masculinity and femininity. Gender is typically thought of as being a cultural and social construct.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 12:26:02)

quote:

the words "sex" and "gender" are not, as far as I know, synonymous, although the distinction may be subtle. Sex refers to the physical male and female, and gender to the qualities of masculinity and femininity. Gender is typically thought of as being a cultural and social construct.


The terms "sex" and "gender" are synonymous when referring to the physical qualities of "male" and "female." You can check any dictionary definition. I think what you are referring to is a more recent development, favored by social scientists and anthropologists, in which "gender" is used to describe qualities of masculinity and femininity. But their expansion of the meaning of "gender," as well as the terms "cultural and social construct" themselves, reflect the views in academia. They do not alter the meaning of "gender" as synonymous with "sex" when it refers to the physical sex of someone.

Cheers,

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 12:38:16)

Haven't you just appropriated Paul's initial point ?

D.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 14:08:00)

quote:

Haven't you just appropriated Paul's initial point ?


Paul originally wrote, "Am I the only one here who would prefer it if gender weren’t used as a euphemism for sex? As I understand, the use of the former arose so as to have a means of classifying people such as those who feel themselves to be a woman trapped in a man’s body, and so forth."

My point is that the term "gender" has never been used as a euphemism for "sex"; rather, the two terms have always been used interchangeably. The recent development in which academia has appropriated the term "gender" (as well as that all-purpose academic term "social construct") does not alter the original, and still valid, use of the term "gender" as synonymous with "sex" when describing the male or female of the species.

Cheers,

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 16:45:07)

quote:

the two terms have always been used interchangeably


Gender has occasionally been used as a synonym for sex, going back hundreds of years, yes; but the normal term used to be the latter.

For example, my birth certificate (1946) and my father’s (1921) both have a column labelled Sex.

(Curiously, my mother’s (1913), much smaller, doesn’t specify her sex at all — just her name and the date, nothing else.)

Here’s Fowler (2nd edition with corrections, 1983):

gender, n., is a grammatical term only. To talk of persons or creatures of the masculine or feminine g., meaning of the male or female sex, is either a jocularity (permissible or not according to context) or a blunder.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 19:51:46)

quote:

gender, n., is a grammatical term only. To talk of persons or creatures of the masculine or feminine g., meaning of the male or female sex, is either a jocularity (permissible or not according to context) or a blunder.


To repeat my extract from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition, 1993:

"SEX (as in the feminine gender)."

Take your pick.

Cheers,

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 20:28:41)

quote:

To repeat my extract from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition, 1993:

"SEX (as in the feminine gender)."


Descriptivism strikes again.



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 21:44:57)

quote:

Descriptivism strikes again.


We can use the terms "gender" and "sex" in the way each of us feels most comfortable and still be correct. When appropriate, I use them interchangeably, and you can use them in ways you think best. It would be a false conclusion to describe one or the other as "descriptivism" because of one's personal position on language use. There are authoritative sources that support each of our positions as prescriptive.

One final note on the use of "descriptive" vs. "prescriptive" that has nothing to do with the current debate. One must be very careful in one's description of a word's definition as being "descriptive" or "prescriptive." Any linguist will tell you that definitions and meanings can change over time and use: the concept of "living language." What once might have been termed "descriptive" may over time and use come to be legitimately termed "prescriptive." There are numerous examples in English. Frankly, I am more of a language purist, in that I think we accept these changing meanings too soon in order to accommodate poor use of language. Nevertheless, there you have it.

Cheers,

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: Examples of good English. (Jun. 2 2013 23:45:24)

Enough of "gender" and "sex." Back to Literature.

I mentioned in an earlier posting that if I had to bring with me one book with which to survive alone on a desert island, it would be the complete works of the Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges. The stories of Borges are truly fantastic explorations of labyrinthine plots and fabulous experiences of infinite libraries, books of sand, infinite memory, and themes of appearance vs. reality.

But if I could bring with me the works of two authors, my second choice would be Italo Calvino. Has anyone read Calvino's "If on a Winter's Night a Traveller"? It comes close to Borges in its exploration of the fabulous. Borges and Calvino are in a class of their own.

Cheers,

Bill



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