Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (Full Version)

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gj Michelob -> Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 21:27:12)

My greatest flaw as a musician, and it is no small problem, is that I never played with anyone else, not even that funny ticking metro[g]nome whom I am now learning to accept as part of my practice.

But... i just cannot count beats, and must rely on my instinct to keep track of them. Track I often lose.

Any exercise, trick or routine anyone can recommend for this old dog to 'learn' and develop this most rudimentary form of practicing?



johnnefastis -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 22:06:17)

I am no pro but I reckon get that metronome ticking slowly, tap your foot, play with some dancers and watch Chicuelo.
Good luck



aeolus -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 22:22:26)

I know exactly what you mean. It's alot like walking and chewing gum at the same time.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 22:23:23)

I have friends that are a bit like you, its a total mess.

I think you should try just playing straight with the metronome, even without a guitar. Play half, quarter notes and etc. Get a feel for the beat and the impplied beats.

Cant imagine someone playing any flamenco without a sense for rhythm, there wouldnt be any "10 11 12".



Leñador -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 22:30:37)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136277&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cwooten&tmode=&smode=&s=#136380

At the top of this thread there's a video with Victor Wooten, he's a rhythm master, all of these principles can be applied to flamenco. He's got several YouTube videos where he talks about how to improve rhythmic accuracy, IMO the best videos on the Internet concerning this matter.

@Aeolus, of course rhythm is hard for you, your a classical player [:D] lol, just playin, I've come to appreciate your left field posts.



aeolus -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 22:52:05)




gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 23:07:11)

quote:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136277&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cwooten&tmode=&smode=&s=#136380

At the top of this thread there's a video with Victor Wooten, he's a rhythm master, all of these principles can be applied to flamenco. He's got several YouTube videos where he talks about how to improve rhythmic accuracy, IMO the best videos on the Internet concerning this matter.


Helpful video and helpful thread. Thank you so much. However, it is neither rhythm nor tempo I am losing, but the beats I just cannot count out 'loud', and end up relying on 'sense' rather than speaking them out '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12....

This problem is more significant when improvising/composing a falseta [if repeating an existing well structured falseta, I just follow it as such]; sometimes by not being able to say it out loud, i see that I lose track of where i am. I realize this is a flaw... hence the query, and desire to remedy.

As here...




bursche -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 23:33:10)

Counting inhibits your playing anyway. Just listen to some Zambos Bulerías and feel the groove[:D]



chester -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 7 2013 23:34:49)

Try working with a falseta you already know well and changing the rhythm ever-so-slightly. Make sure you're comfortable with your variation and feel how it fits in the compas. When you have that variation under your belt - change it again.

Keep pushing yourself, but take it slow. These things can take a while so try not to get too frustrated.

As far as playing with people - get yourself a group and start jamming! Might sound horrible at first, but things get better.

Playing by yourself is meditation, playing with people is a party.



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 0:25:22)

quote:

Counting inhibits your playing anyway. Just listen to some Zambos Bulerías and feel the groove


'can't disagree with that, but I propose there is a time to play and a time to... practice

quote:

Try working with a falseta you already know well and changing the rhythm ever-so-slightly. Make sure you're comfortable with your variation and feel how it fits in the compas. When you have that variation under your belt - change it again.


That is pretty smart, I wonder why i did not think of it... variations on some falsetas I already have down to a pattern. I am sure they will drive me crazy but at least i have some earmarks to land on. Bravo Chester...



rogeliocan -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 1:08:35)

quote:



Helpful video and helpful thread. Thank you so much. However, it is neither rhythm nor tempo I am losing, but the beats I just cannot count out 'loud', and end up relying on 'sense' rather than speaking them out '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12....


Practice makes perfect. Practice counting with something simple and slowly at first, just one compas. I bet you will be able to play and count that compas fast in no time, then do another one, slow again.

At first I thought you were having a hard time counting country music... so it's really good you are talking 12 beat!!! Are you off the country band wagon and back to flamenco? Or are going to start some country/flamenco fusion? Didn't you sell your two big name guitars? lot's of questions...



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 1:50:43)

Dear rogeliocan, thank you for your concern. I will try –against my natural verbose proclivity - to offer a brief explanation. In a nutshell:

I have always loved and continue to, Country Music, but I have always played nylon strings [let's just put it that way], was it classical or fingerpicking bluegrass, country or celtic music.

Then a few years ago, I discovered flamenco and it changed my life.
However, I see flamenco as three discrete wonders:

1. Flamenco per se [i.e.: the traditional and rigorously structured style];
2. Flamenco as a peculiar technique to play nylon strings on a sound-specific instrument; and
3. A wonderful and comprehensive vehicle to learn music theory and guitar in general.

What turned me off about flamenco were the people, not the music, on this Foro. I just ended up associating flamenco with endless and disturbingly raucous disputes about what the 'thing' really is [and keep in mind that I engage in 'dispute' of assorted intensity the whole day long, so music must represent some sort of relaxing break or it would defeat the purpose]. Above all, I had devoted myself to the Foro quite enthusiastically and took some disappointments more to heart than I would have otherwise, because of such zeal.

And so yes, I sold them all, my sweet flamenco guitars [save for the Vaquez Rubio blanca, to which I now added my Navarro Student with Pegs -I had sold and now reacquired from LaFalseta and literally cannot put down... heavenly little guitar].

I have always enjoyed writing melodies, and Country music is all about melodies. However yet, I really like to play them [fingerpicking-style] on a flamenco guitar. I know some here can’t wait for an opportunity to humiliate me about them, but there is worse in life. So …

… Now that I have found some sort of balance, I actually want to seriously study flamenco. I am determined to structure my summer schedule to carve out enough time take lessons from Ricardo and practice sufficiently to make them worth each others' time.

…But I have this unrealistic dream [pleonastic adjective, but to reinforce, it is a fantasy] of recording and putting out there a few of my oddly played country/celtic tunes. Why not, after all thus far in life I have accomplished all that people expected of me –and I am not complaining; at 50, I suppose, silly as age will undoubtedly make it sound, I heed the call, chirping clearly … a different tune.



Dave K -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 2:14:59)

Hi GJ, I took a few lessons from Jason several years ago - When I expressed amazement that he could play (anything, contras or whatever) and count at the same time, he said he had to learn that in order to teach properly. I've heard that other people can do it, but doubt that anyone can do so at his level.

I've heard your playing, and I'm pretty sure it's rare that you'd loose count, so unless you're planning on teaching, I don't see the point in counting. Once you learn a falsetta and have it in compas, it's just a matter throwing it with some rhythm and other falsettas together, no?

Cheers,
Dave



RibNibbler -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 2:15:25)

pretend each beat of music is money. you wont lose any if you give them a value. some even place a greater value than money on rhythm. those people are usually very poor, yet very funky.



mark74 -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 2:26:10)

Getting the compas right on the asymmetrical palos takes time and to internalize it takes time.

You know I hav the same problem which is why I'm mostly working on picado in the context of rumba and tangos right now and will get back to classical flamenco later when I have more time

Jose Tanaka on his website stressed the left foot as a means of internalizing compas and when the left foot is mastered moving on to combining the left foot with the golpe, but it doesn't happen overnight. One should probably work with the most simple soleas to begin with.

If you're going to take lessons with Ricardo, what I would do is concentrate on other things until you begin your lessons....maybe rasguedo or picado or some other aspect of playing. Then when he begins instructing you he would probablyassess your weaknesses and know where to start accordingly. Otherwise its overwhelming



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 3:07:40)

quote:

I've heard your playing, and I'm pretty sure it's rare that you'd loose count, so in less you're planning on teaching, I don't see the point in counting. Once you learn a falsetta and have it in compas, it's just a matter throwing it with some rhythm and other falsettas together, no?


You are too kind, Dave ['and made my day] and perhaps you are right about my obsession with counting out loud, it's neither simple nor strictly necessary.

quote:

pretend each beat of music is money. you wont lose any if you give them a value. some even place a greater value than money on rhythm. those people are usually very poor, yet very funky.


Regrettably, Rib, I respect 'notes' and 'beats' more than I do money... but your point is well taken. Every penny counts, and so does every note and each beat.

quote:

If you're going to take lessons with Ricardo, what I would do is concentrate on other things until you begin your lessons....maybe rasguedo or picado or some other aspect of playing. Then when he begins instructing you he will assess your weaknesses and know where to start accordingly. Otherwise its overwhelming


Mark, as I wrote elsewhere, I am truly intimidated by Ricardo, but I respect his devotion to Flamenco, his knowledge and [yes] his genius immensely. I am not too keen on learning unless I really admire the teacher. I only hope he does not mind knowing that he will not have the satisfaction of forming [with me] the new generation of Gringo-Flamencos, but at best a stuttering flamingo...
I agree, on preparing so to make each lesson valuable, but the reason I want to take lessons is because I know my skills are somehow poisoned by bad and calcified habits. So, I want to learn it all fresh from him, as the beginner I am [&:]



Dave K -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 3:28:13)

quote:

I have always enjoyed writing melodies, and Country music is all about melodies. However yet, I really like to play them [fingerpicking-style] on a flamenco guitar.

Although he does not play fingerstyle, Willie Nelson's nylon string playing proves you don't need a D-18 to play great country. Maybe you can take nylon string fingerpicking/country to a new level.

Cheers,
Dave



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 3:36:39)

quote:

Although he does not play fingerstyle, Willie Nelson's nylon string playing proves you don't need a D-18 to play great country. Maybe you can take nylon string fingerpicking/country to a new level.


I compose the music I would like to hear but can't find ...

so if nothing else I will 'laugh at my own jokes" [;)]

Thank you, Dave.



mark74 -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 3:44:29)

Are you really comfortable with the phrygian, phrygian dominant and harmonic scales and playing falsettas in different positions on the fretboard with and without capo?

If you don't have to think too much about where your left hand is going next you can concentrate more on rhythm..at least thats my plan for myself



RibNibbler -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 5:22:18)

quote:

Country music is all about melodies.


Ah yes the profound melodies of country music....




manicfingers -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 5:47:58)

gj - you're actually in better company than you imagine.

I remember buying a flamenco dvd by Carmelita of the famous (gitano) Montoya family from Triana, because the cover implied it would explain how the bulerias compas is structured, but on watching the vid, it became clear that she couldn't count the 12, and even when pressed by the interviewer as to how it was structured, she just said.. well it goes BAP bap bap BAP bap bap etc... she just internalised the lot and seemed a little bewildered at why the question was even necessary.

Starting in my mid 30s. It took me a full 3 years of listening to bulerias before I could identify and predict the beats, counts, pulsation, such that I could really enjoy what the player was doing, and when eg. a dancer was doing contra beats. I just woke up one morning, and went 'aha'.

Alegrias/Solea Por Bulerias strangely took even longer, but it eventually penetrated my slow, inefficient neural circuitry, and I can now count the notes in my head, and know how it grooves, with or without counting.

But I think (I can't be sure) that all this came from listening to flamenco and trying to count and do palmas along with it rather than practicing the guitar per se. This for me is the first and most important thing.. listening and using my hands as the beat counters, and feeling the music flow through my head.

When I achieved that for each Palo, picking up the guitar and counting while playing was a very small step. So it is possible, even though I'm not very musically talented, and I'm not young.

I have a stupidly talented jazz/classical indian singer friend. She was interested in Bulerias, and after I had nailed it.. I said.. it's easy, just go BAP.. bap bap BAP bap bap BAP bap BAP bap BAP bap, and she nailed it after 3 attempts of tapping along with me (without counting). She took seconds, I took years.

We're not all born equal, but it's such a buzz to nail it in the end, and now I have that for life.

Good luck.. take your time.. and nice to see you back on the foro.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 9:09:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manicfingers



But I think (I can't be sure) that all this came from listening to flamenco and trying to count and do palmas along with it rather than practicing the guitar per se. This for me is the first and most important thing.. listening and using my hands as the beat counters, and feeling the music flow through my head.




Bang on !!!

D.



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 13:51:44)

quote:

Mark74 wrote: Are you really comfortable with the phrygian, phrygian dominant and harmonic scales and playing falsettas in different positions on the fretboard with and without capo?


Touché .... there is some work I can and should start on my own.

quote:

RibNibbler wrote: Ah yes the profound melodies of country music.


That is soooo mean!!! I started laughing before I even opened the 'sample' video... I know how bad country can get.
Allow me to narrow the scope of my initial statement:
I do not love all of Country music unconditionally, but the songs I love are all Country Music. The same measured enthusiasm also applies to my passion for Falmenco.

quote:

Mancifingers wrote: listening to flamenco and trying to count and do palmas along with it rather than practicing the guitar per se. This for me is the first and most important thing.. listening and using my hands as the beat counters, and feeling the music flow through my head....
... We're not all born equal, but it's such a buzz to nail it in the end, and now I have that for life.


'You hit the nail right on the head'. I am afraid that one detracting and distracting factor in my learning thus far has been my partiality to the more open-ended and loosely structured toque libre; along with the practice MArk74 suggests, listening and 'interacting' with more rhythmic palos will be part of my learning curve.

I must add, however, that when I took my break and devoted time to country, I realized that i was composing all phrases in Twelve, my first 2 measures in threes and then twos... Although rather hesitantly, I am somehow on the right path, but this journey is a long and hopefully, yes, a fun one. 'cos if ain't fun, it ain't worth it [;)]



BarkellWH -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 14:16:21)

quote:

I do not love all of Country music unconditionally, but the songs I love are all Country Music.


I very much like what is generally covered under the rubric "Country and Western" music, gj, with an emphasis on "Western." My favorite singer in that genre was Marty Robbins, and I still have the vinyl recordings of his two albums, "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs," and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs." For my money, his song "El Paso" is one of the all-time great songs in any genre. Marty Robbins was a singer of ballads that told stories. I grew up in Arizona, and my family background (and, indeed, a good share of my life) has been inextricably tied to Mexico and things (including the language) Spanish. Marty Robbins over the years recorded ballads that dealt with love and death along the Mexican border. Linda Ronstadt covered a lot of that territory as well in her album entitled, "Canciones de mi Padre," (Songs of my Father) with lots of nice Northern Mexican Rancheros and Corridos. Wonderful stuff.

Cheers,

Bill



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 14:32:45)

quote:

Marty Robbins


'love him... and that era of country music.
For a classic voice, I am a great fan of George Strait
[on Facebook I get a lot of 'smiles' about my Spotify playlists]

Although roosting more on the Bluegrass side of the fence, Alisson Krauss and her Union Station is one of the most sophisticated ensambles in the genre.

Here she is with Jerry Douglas, in a Debro arrangement of James Taylor's legendary 'In my Mind I am going to Carolina"




rogeliocan -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 15:59:28)

quote:

What turned me off about flamenco were the people, not the music, on this Foro. I just ended up associating flamenco with endless and disturbingly raucous disputes about what the 'thing' really is [and keep in mind that I engage in 'dispute' of assorted intensity the whole day long, so music must represent some sort of relaxing break or it would defeat the purpose]. Above all, I had devoted myself to the Foro quite enthusiastically and took some disappointments more to heart than I would have otherwise, because of such zeal.


Well, that hasn't change.... so it's a good thing you just let it go.

Must be something to go back to 'lesser' guitars. And be careful what you reply, if you do.

At 50 I would hope that you are more concerned about what YOU accomplish as opposed to others, which I am certain you are.

And you should definitely record your countryish music, if you want to. Your mind is the only limitation. If you think it is unrealistic, chances are it will be.

So welcome back, again, I've said it before, but this time to playing flamenco!



gj Michelob -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 16:14:10)

quote:

Your mind is the only limitation. If you think it is unrealistic, chances are it will be.


I could not agree more and appreciate your encouragement.

It is often the case with any a plan; we set our goals but our 'insecurity' is the iron cast shackle that locks our flight to the ground.

However, for me 'unrealistic' describes my inability to find/make time to practice, polish and record a song [while the sole thought of adding more instruments is overwhelming, requiring such dedication as to make the project unfeasible].

I need to accept and settle for some raw variety of recording, as only that is within my limited reach.



Ricardo -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 16:15:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

quote:

Country music is all about melodies.


Ah yes the profound melodies of country music....




Any melody with daisy dukes involved is profound. [:D]



FredGuitarraOle -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 17:28:16)

quote:

Any melody with daisy dukes involved is profound.

Haha totally.



rogeliocan -> RE: Losing count in... beats and pieces!! (May 8 2013 17:53:20)

quote:

However, for me 'unrealistic' describes my inability to find/make time to practice, polish and record a song [while the sole thought of adding more instruments is overwhelming, requiring such dedication as to make the project unfeasible].

I need to accept and settle for some raw variety of recording, as only that is within my limited reach.


yes... Jack of all trades, master of none. That is why I never play my acoustic anymore (not that I am mastering flamenco, but that is the goal). Plus like you say polishing/final touches takes so much time, just that is a project of its own.



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