RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Full Version)

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keith -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 12:49:35)

yikes, with so many fingers in the pie pretty soon the label of these collaborative guitars are going to read like a sherry-brener label that he used for his garcia/hernandez/barbero guitars.



SavageClassicalGuitar -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:02:54)

OK, this is pointless, and I will not engage. Enjoy.

Tom, I heartily recommend backing away from these types of conversations.
Free marketing, yes. Worth it, maybe. Heartache, no.

Best to all. My phones are open anytime you wish to speak with me. Rich



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:15:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavageClassicalGuitar
This is a beautiful classical guitar with that bold in your face Spanish characteristic that amazes you until you hear that Tom Blackshear built it. Actually, Tom did not build the guitar, but has commissioned this guitar from a famous builder in Spain thru a collaborative effort of modeling and testing with an experienced concert player as the tester for these incredible guitars.


Why even use the first sentence in this description if transparency is what you are after? It contradicts the later.



" This is a beautiful classical guitar with that bold in your face Spanish characteristic that amazes you until you hear that Tom Blackshear built it."

This reminds me of ancient Soliloquies which were frequently used in dramas but went out of fashion when drama shifted towards realism in the late 18th century.

A soliloquy (from Latin: "talking by oneself") is a device often used in drama when a character speaks to himself or herself, relating thoughts and feelings, thereby also sharing them with the audience.

However, you have a point that I'm sure Rich would want to clarify, since he took this from one of his other articles about my personal build.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:32:53)

Rich, I like the interaction with readers on this list and I find it to be informative most of the time.

I feel that this particular issue needs to be transparent due to the reasons that most designers behind the scenes in this industry have no desire to be ridiculed or questioned on their ideals concerning this business. And this is their decision to make.

But I would rather get everything hashed out, as much as possible, to get the right program in order for all to benefit from. I want to have this right/correct, up front, instead of having to change things later on.

I feel you want the same thing, as this is not a costly endeavor, at this moment in time. So, if the thinking readers on this list are willing to respond with humorous suggestions, then rest assured they care enough to give input that will benefit everyone.

I hold to an old proverb that said: "Where no wise direction is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

I consider much of this list to be of great value, concerning it.



Morante -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:41:11)

Strange thing, talking about "great" guitars that you can buy for only 6000: if I wanted a guitar which would be on the same level as my Gerundino (different, of course), I could buy one made by hand by one person in Andalucía. I could choose the wood, I could watch it being made. But the price is between 2 and 3000 euros, depending on the specs.

A little bit of reality, pleeeeeeze[:o]



C. Vega -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:41:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

This reminds me of ancient Soliloquies which were frequently used in dramas but went out of fashion when drama shifted towards realism in the late 18th century.


Sounds more like ancient BS to me.
How about shifting a little more of that realism into this thread?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:52:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

This reminds me of ancient Soliloquies which were frequently used in dramas but went out of fashion when drama shifted towards realism in the late 18th century.


Sounds more like ancient BS to me.
How about shifting a little more of that realism into this thread?


Just giving my opinion, Charles. Perhaps you could point out the things you find confusing in the advertising and rewrite it for Rich? That might be a great help. In fact, wouldn't it be interesting to have a list, like this, formulate a new guitar business with the help of its contributors! WOW!

Put your thinking caps on, people, and give us your insight into what you would like to see happen with this new model. Quality...price......be reasonable, and all other aspects.



C. Vega -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 13:54:50)

Tom, the more you post the more foolish you sound.



gbv1158 -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:08:18)

quote:

Strange thing, talking about "great" guitars that you can buy for only 6000: if I wanted a guitar which would be on the same level as my Gerundino (different, of course), I could buy one made by hand by one person in Andalucía. I could choose the wood, I could watch it being made. But the price is between 2 and 3000 euros, depending on the specs.

A little bit of reality, pleeeeeeze



it is true! ...... with 3000 Euros and the right Luthier you can have the best flamenco guitar! .....
....and if one wants to spend more .... well .....gets a trip to Spain! :-)

ciao,
giambattista



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:12:17)

quote:

I could buy one made by hand by one person in Andalucía. I could choose the wood, I could watch it being made. But the price is between 2 and 3000 euros, depending on the specs.


Be honest, how many people have access to builders like this? 3000 Euros is about $4,500 plus shipping and duty to the US, and this is without dealer cost. So, tell me honestly, how do people shop for the deals you espouse?

So, you imply we should come down on price to suit your pocket book? Well, this is what we are going to try and do, and then try and maintain a higher level of quality, as we work this out.

It's easy for a person to extol his abilities to find good deals but what about the average person who has to go shopping at the music stores? One thing is quite clear and this is..... he has the freedom to try out many instruments before he buys, and this solution, alone, is worth any small difference that you expound on.

Which brings to my mind about Bob Ruck's guitars that sold for $4,500 earlier on, and yet they sold for $7,000 in music stores, in that same time frame. It stands to reason that people choose to pay a little extra to get what they want, rather than wait years or take what the builder projects from his own bench. I see a lot of benefit for music stores.

When the money is gone, you have the guitar of your choice.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:17:50)

quote:


Tom, the more you post the more foolish you sound.



I'm doing the best I can, Charles, how about giving some of your high art suggestions to help out?



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:19:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I consider much of this list to be of great value, concerning it.



Like Dyingsea´s comment.
His pointer looks like useful to me.
That part of the text should maybe rather be like: "until you hear that Tom Blackshear is being involved in the making / stands behind the production" or similiar.

This project has nothing in common with Sherry Brener coups, and as Tom just said, the critical remarks from the fellows here can be used to remove any slip that could be appearing unclear or contradictory.
Better now, indeed, than later.
-

I wonder where all that venom used to be about serial production from Ramirez or Bernabe alikes who would at least partially spill out bulky duds for way more than the 5 or 6 grands price discussed here.

Granted, 6000 bucks ain´t no small cash still, but if the Tom / Adalid project is to achive consistency on current level then these guitars will compete with what comes in commonly for some big bills on top. Appearing like a bargain within corresponding retail standards.

I for one can certainly imagine what will happen if guitars like the current preproduction be hanging in European stores for slightly over 4600€, side by side with the usual suspects of such price range.

Apart of the deaf fraction who hunts for brands reputation ( I have wittnessed such kind of blindness [ even with advanced and educated players!], and it can be amazing to say the least) the experienced customers who try out before looking at labels will be letting mediocre guitars gathering dust, despite beautifully looking woods and wonderfully sparkling finishes.
And I am willing to bet that the neglected ones won´t be guitars that sound like those linked to in this thread.

Players ( not collectors) will appreciate the instruments performance, accepting the collaboration behind the label, I am certain.

After all you compare what´s in your price range. And practically, based on performance.

Ruphus



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:31:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Strange thing, talking about "great" guitars that you can buy for only 6000: if I wanted a guitar which would be on the same level as my Gerundino (different, of course), I could buy one made by hand by one person in Andalucía. I could choose the wood, I could watch it being made. But the price is between 2 and 3000 euros, depending on the specs.

A little bit of reality, pleeeeeeze[:o]


Who read from me in old discussions like on AG know that I basically do agree with you.
However, your individual opportunity is not the one of Joe Average out there; and you know that.

J.A. is roaming the typical shops in EU or USA. And even if in Spain he wouldn´t know which builder could supply him with fine guitars at 2- or 3000 €. ( I certainly wouldn´t.)

And back in the stores, conditions are in a way that guitars like discussed here in a 4- to 5000 € shelf will make you jump of joy, once you´ve learned what the common instrument in that price range performs like.
Talking new instruments ( not second hand market ) that is how it widely is.

Ruphus



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 14:50:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Sounds more like ancient BS to me.
How about shifting a little more of that realism into this thread?


You seem to be relating to ancient kauri which I have been poitning to in another thread.

I admire your factual knowledge on guitar building history, but your cynism progressively reveals your firm and unfounded spots.

What do you know about ancient kauri without having any empirics on it?
How do you expect to be taken seriously with such bold prejustice that you increasingly display.

Do you really expect now that AK will turn out bullsh!t, only because you decided so?

Aside from the fact that it has been my fascination with a material that is the oldest wood in the world and beautiful to boot, AK does in fact provide specifics as tone wood; Dear Mr. Vega, if you may put that into your lofty pipe and smoke it.

This becomes evident to who is not tone deaf and listens to recordings made with guitars of this material which do have a certain sonority.
And even a luthier who used this material first time after my request, originally sceptic / not expecting anything positive performing wise, found out that this wood does differ in sound characteristics from the woods he has used before. Even significantly.

But great to see that you know it all in advance, leaving the raving users on guitar boards ( vastly on sinkerwoods, lesser on rare AK) and me as blind fools while you know what´s what.

It is a pity how you needlessly unmount your platform of knowledge.

Ruphus



C. Vega -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 15:18:15)

Ruphus, what in the hell are you babbling about?

My comment was in response to Tom's using "ancient Soliloquies" in a very sorry-assed attempt to sweep some of the bullsh*t in this thread under the rug. It had nothing whatsoever to do with ancient kauri, sinker wood or anything like it.
Read the damn post.



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 15:24:21)

I am sorry for mistaking! My apologies!
Weird how I repeatedly misunderstand you.

Ruphus



keith -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 17:36:45)

ruphus, i was not suggesting tom was pulling a sherry, rather, his label may look like a sherry label. if you recall, the sherry factory guitars had the geographical location of most structures on the label (pine top from here, back and sides from there, rosette from persia, etc.).



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 18:02:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I am sorry for mistaking! My apologies!
Weird how I repeatedly misunderstand you.

Ruphus



My wish was that Charles would have used some of his brilliant minded information to add a positive note to this fray. I think he missed the point that Rich used it off the top of his head from another article about my personal build.

And to clue everyone in, all of my personal builds have sold off his list in the past couple of years. So, I'm satisfied with Rich's sales ability.

The only two guitars in question are the Adalid guitars that we are scheduling for the market, and with this model we are trying to seek a price point that will be good for players with a mid range pocket-book, and those professionals that want to give them a try.

I've enjoyed the feed back on this thread and I approach this venture with the attitude, "Nothing ventured, is nothing gained."

Do I think this will be a great venture....time will tell. We are doing this on a shoestring with practically no advertising but then all of my personal business' were done this way and it seems that there is a universal plan to bless those who bless others. This, we are trying to do.



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 18:08:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

ruphus, i was not suggesting tom was pulling a sherry, rather, his label may look like a sherry label. if you recall, the sherry factory guitars had the geographical location of most structures on the label (pine top from here, back and sides from there, rosette from persia, etc.).


Gotcha! :O)

Ruphus



constructordeguitarras -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 18:15:38)

Ruphus, I'm not picking on you in particular--you were just the last post--but guys, this is getting deep.



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Morante -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 18:35:28)

If I lived in the good old USA[:o] I would buy a guitar from an American luthier. Furthermore, I would try to buy it from the best luthier who lived near to me. There is nothing magical about a Spanish made guitar.

Many years ago, when I was working in the taller of Rafael Lopez, I sent a question by e-mail to John Shelton, because we had no knowledge of sitka spruce. His reply was detailed, honest and friendly and I concluded that I would have no reservations about buying a guitar from him if I should have the ill fortune to live in the USA.

Buy locally and forget the international charges, taxes and scams.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 18:39:17)

quote:


My comment was in response to Tom's using "ancient Soliloquies" in a rather sorry-assed effort to sweep some of the bullsh*t in this thread under the rug.


Charles, would it be possible for you to come to my shop and let me show you what I'm doing with fine-tuning?

It's not rocket science or mystical in any way. It incorporates certain skills that are used naturally.

Since 1975 my intuition has played a major role in voicing instruments, it stands to reason that the great accomplishment in this area would be to gather enough natural skills to make each guitar speak with its own voice in a refined manner.

I've learned much of this from what I studied and believed about the Miguel Rodriguez guitars; not withstanding that each guitar would have its own propio sello (personal stamp), not that they would all sound exactly alike.

I can say that this is a personalized style of building, learned from what I believe about some of the great contemporary Spanish builders. But everyone has his own style, or personal stamp, and this is to acknowledge that many styles work to the benefit of each guitar builder.



C. Vega -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 19:48:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Charles, would it be possible for you to come to my shop and let me show you what I'm doing with fine-tuning?



Sure...if you're willing to reimburse me for the cost of a round-trip plane ticket, accommodations, local transportation and meals while I'm there plus compensate me for any financial losses I may incur from not doing my usual thing.

Shall I arrange to come in September while Adalid is there?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 19 2013 20:10:07)

quote:

if I should have the ill fortune to live in the USA.


First, It's not a good idea to get political on this forum, and secondly, I have given most of the information about this new model for everyone to read; being as transparent, as I could. So it is due to certain time constraints for my own building practice being neglected that I'm going to sign off, but invite those with valid questions to e-mail me privately, and I'll try and answer you as best I can......and when I can.

tguitars@texas.net

And Charles, you are such a nice guy :-)



Ricardo -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 3:02:46)

Tom just say your guitar will be built in a factory by 19 guys with experience building what ever parts they make, (including fine tuning over the belt sander), charge $1500 via ebay and every one happy I think. Or do they cry even more? Let's find out. [:D]

What is scary is there are some great guitars in that price range made in such a fashion, that I and other pros would chose over certain "luthier makes" any day. Well, not scary to me but obviously a problem for many. I sort of understand the painful side of it....a beautiful elegant lady getting dumped for a cheap whore. You would think it not so bad if the cheap whore at least dressed up and pretended to be an elegant lady, but it just makes it worse somehow....and life goes on.



avimuno -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 4:44:23)

quote:

You would think it not so bad if the cheap whore at least dressed up and pretended to be an elegant lady, but it just makes it worse somehow....and life goes on.


Ricardo, how about if the cheap whore dressed up in orange?! [;)]



FlamencoD -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 8:01:31)

Wow, this thing is blowing up. That said, I do think the write up is hokie. He should change it on the website. And to use the excuse that he copied it from another write up from one of your builds is a sorry one. He obviously had to spend time writing the rest of the write-up, but he couldn't change the first sentence? So far, of the recording I listened to, I'm a fan of these guitars sound and appearance, but not a fan of the write-up or labeling procedure on those first couple of guitars.



C. Vega -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 13:55:32)

Why do I get the feeling that Tom might be backing out on his offer/invitation to show me his fine tuning techniques? [8|]


I also see that the guy selling the Esteve/Blackshear guitars has modified his website description but it's still a far cry from full disclosure.



Ricardo -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 15:04:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno

quote:

You would think it not so bad if the cheap whore at least dressed up and pretended to be an elegant lady, but it just makes it worse somehow....and life goes on.


Ricardo, how about if the cheap whore dressed up in orange?! [;)]


exactly. and in the end, look what most of the real pros are using all the time. [;)] It's not always about what she wears, but what she can do. [8D]



Ruphus -> RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (Aug. 20 2013 16:25:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Why do I get the feeling that Tom might be backing out on his offer/invitation to show me his fine tuning techniques? [8|]


Considering your reply to his invitation, I wouldn´t even invite Anne-Nicole Smith ( RIP, sweety) under such preconditions. Lest if I am supposed to share something.
-

I don´t get it.
Why on earth are so many folks reluctant to accept that a guitar can be refined after assembly? And possibly even optimally so for yet assembled will the instrument show its sounding properties?

What is the reason for filing fine tuning as sharlatanry from the get go / by all means?
Is it because what you don´t know / practise ought to be mumbo self-evidently?

Could you sceptics kindly explain?
How about this way around, for a change?

Ruphus



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