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Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 8 2013 15:53:46)

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Erik van Goch -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 16:23:41)

Very interesting indeed, thanks for posting :-)




constructordeguitarras -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 18:08:51)

I think the people who value Strads over modern violins are the same people who thought Vincent van Gogh's work was terrible when he was alive and wonderful after he was dead. I don't think they can hear a difference (as I think blind tests have shown). Moreover the fungus probably attacked Strads long after they were made and was not the maker's intention.




RibNibbler -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 18:14:55)

quote:

regarding the use of certain fungi to change the characteristics of wood


urine works better




C. Vega -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 19:08:06)

What a lot of people seem to forget, or perhaps didn't know in the first place, is that practically every existing Stradivari violin (viola and cello) has undergone considerable modification over the years, not to mention repairs, restoration, etc. so that they sound very different than they did originally. With the exception of one large viola that originally was part of a set of instruments made for the Medici family and currently resides in a museum in Italy, they have all been considerably altered starting in the early 19th century to make them playable by and therefore useful to modern musicians.
The necks and fingerboards have been lengthened and cocked back, the internal structure beefed up, they are fitted with taller bridges and higher tension strings than they originally had along with different tailpieces, pegs and other fittings.
All this coupled with the numerous crack repair cleats, various patches, wood doubling, etc. that most of them have makes for instruments that are a far cry from what they were when they were made. Some of them have less than half of their original top wood remaining.
The current sound of a Stradivari violin probably has much more to do with the skill of the often unknown but highly skilled craftspeople who performed this work over the centuries than any silly nonsense about fungus, urine, magic varnishes, etc. Perhaps as much if not even more than Stradivari's original work.
One example that's currently in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's collection was more or less "built back" to late 17th century specs by a Swiss violin maker a number of years ago. It supposedly wasn't a particularly great specimen in its modern configuration and turned out to be even less impressive as an old style instrument.
Contrary to what we've been led to believe, largely by the violin dealers, not every Strad is a sonic masterpiece. Only a small percentage of the existing Stradivari instruments see any regular use. Most of them reside in museum display cases and bank vaults.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 19:12:18)

Ive heard about fingering, strapping, hanging and fisting a guitar but... is anyone really pissing on it?




C. Vega -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 19:25:47)

There is one crackpot "expert" out there, a retired biophysics professor named Joseph Nagyvary, who claims that one of Stradivari's secrets, among numerous other nonsensical things he's claimed to have "discovered" over the years, was that Stradivari used urine-soaked wood for his instruments.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 8 2013 19:39:53)

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C. Vega -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 19:59:07)

Let's not forget the role of the player in the "Strad Sound". Most newbie guitar players can play a few pleasant sounding chords in a relatively short time. Getting a decent sound out of a violin takes a lot more work.
I've seen a good number of genuine Strads, handled a few and even played a bit on one of them. After my scratchy rendition of Percy Grainger's "Country Gardens" on the Strad the dealer, who happened to be a good friend of mine and was selling the violin on consignment, just shook his head and said "Well, that fiddle's never going to be the same."
But you could hand a violinist like Itzhak Perlman or Joshua Bell a strung up cigar box and a bow and they'd sound better playing it than I did playing that poor Strad.




keith -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 8 2013 22:01:39)

there is a thread at delcamp about this. apparently stopping the fungi is almost impossible without resorting to some serious chemical intervention--serious as in cancer, immediate death--that sort of thing. one of the poster's sister-in law allegedly works on the project and mentioned the difficulty in stopping the process.

just think of the possibilities for the luthier--first ethlyene oxide then nitro lacquer. say goodbye to brain cells galore and hello to that third ear growing on the back of the neck.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=76576




estebanana -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 0:21:44)

Shroomy starts a thread about fungus.




Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 9 2013 0:30:50)

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 7:50:13)

Using mould and fungus has been and is being used in flamenco guitars.

I once visited a builder who claims to use 30 year old wood (no name) and saw his storrage.
It was in a humid semi-cellar with occasional water on the floor. The wood was stacked without pins and lots of it had mould and fungus on it. It all smelled pretty bad. [sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]




keith -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 12:50:57)

Anders--Looks like that builder should invest in a Hazmat suit, super high speed fans, etc.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 17:53:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

With the exception of one large viola that originally was part of a set of instruments made for the Medici family and currently resides in a museum in Italy, they have all been considerably altered starting in the early 19th century to make them playable by and therefore useful to modern musicians.



Are you referring to the one in the musical instrument collection at the Accademia in Florence? If so, I had a look at it last May, along with a violin and a 'celllo by Stradivari with similar decoration, at the same place.

Have the fiddle and the 'cello been extensively rebuilt? Do you know whether the viola ever gets played in public?

RNJ




C. Vega -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 18:08:25)

Richard,
The instrument I was referring to is in Florence but I believe it's in the Instituto Cherubini...or at least it used to be.
There were apparently two violas in the Medici set, this one and one of more "normal" size. The big boy is an instrument also referred to as a tenore and has a body length of nearly 19 inches. You'd need gorilla arms to play it in the modern position.
It's entirely original except for the strings and has apparently only been opened on one occasion to repair some worm damage. It was essentially an obsolete instrument when it was made (1690) and therefore was played very little. Apparently no one ever felt the need to "modernize" it. I don't think that it's been played in public in many years.
As far as I know, the other remaining instruments from the same Medici set (there was more than one) have been modified. Those in the know seem to think that this set originally consisted of two or three violins, a smaller contralto viola, the big bruiser viola and a cello.




estebanana -> RE: Using fungi to alter wood characteristics (Apr. 9 2013 19:30:31)

Just to supplement what Vega said and explain how and why the viola changed.

Most of the pre 1750's viola have been cut down. They saw open the back and top seam and plane them until the width is reduced. Because the bouts are curved this also reduces the length automatically. If they does not reduce the length enough they trim a bit off the upper a lower bouts a re purffle and re shape the edges. The ribs get loosed at the tail and neck block and a bit gets cut off and then they reglue it so it fits the new outline, it all kind of happens together depending on the situation.

The roll of the viola changed quite a bit between 1580 and 1750. In the beginning they composer seldom called for them to be played out of first position, then gradually the stop, where the F note on the A string met the body needed to be shorter to play more difficult music with position shifts.

The same thing basically for the cello, they made them about 2 or 3" longer in the beginning and finally in the early 1700's got the idea of as 30 -31" back length as the right size. There a few makers who after that made a 28 1/2" or 29 " body.

Most of the older Italian violins have has lot of work done on them, but not always to the point of being unoriginal. Most of the time they are missing a lot of original varnish. It's pretty fascinating top look at lots of them and see if the scroll is original and things like that. When I was at the first violin shop in the early 80's I got to go to LA with my teacher and see all kinds of stuff at Louie Main's shop in Long Beach.

The first time Louie Main opened his vault and pulled out a violin he said this one is by the last of the Cremonese makers. I said "Storioni!" without a second of pause. He said "Very good you can now see anything you like. " Out came a Del Gesu....




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