rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Full Version)

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faridtoghi -> rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 18:53:14)

Hi,

I am very new to Flamenco. I have a general question on rasgueos technique.

I saw two different basic techniques online (in videos, pdf,...). Some people curl up the fingers and lock it on the thumb and then fire them one by one. But in some text it's mentioned that fingers should curl up and rest on the palm. Basically i and m locks on the end of the thumb but o and c completely rests on the palm.

It's difficult to curl all the fingers to lock on the thumb but definitely is easier to fire them from thumb. It's easier to curl up fingers on the palm but specially o and c don't get easily locked in there to fire them up.

Any comments on which one is more accurate in order to get a better rasgueos long term ? Thanks

Regards

Farid



RibNibbler -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:09:58)

either locked on the thumb or not locked at all. locking from the palm is a no no



Ricardo -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:26:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faridtoghi

Hi,

I am very new to Flamenco. I have a general question on rasgueos technique.

I saw two different basic techniques online (in videos, pdf,...). Some people curl up the fingers and lock it on the thumb and then fire them one by one. But in some text it's mentioned that fingers should curl up and rest on the palm. Basically i and m locks on the end of the thumb but o and c completely rests on the palm.

It's difficult to curl all the fingers to lock on the thumb but definitely is easier to fire them from thumb. It's easier to curl up fingers on the palm but specially o and c don't get easily locked in there to fire them up.

Any comments on which one is more accurate in order to get a better rasgueos long term ? Thanks

Regards

Farid


Agreed, no palm. Although rasgueado can be done with no thumb loading at all either. THumb loading gets a specific snapping sound as you flick down into the bass strings. The other style is the fingers move freely and result in a brighter sound as you can target more the treble strings. Watch a bunch of players on youtube and take note of the thumb, whether bent or straight as the finger do rasguedo. Bent thumb indicates loaded and flicked fingers. In the case of straight thumb, there is not "palm loading", the fingers are free.

Ricardo



Bulerias2005 -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:30:54)

Definitely thumb, although it's not explicitly necessary. Personally, I've found that my rasgueados sound cleaner and more defined if I use the "thumb loading" method.



Leñador -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:38:57)

Yup, I do thumb loading and no loading at all, as Ricardo said, different sounds for different effects.



Grisha -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:39:01)

I flick off the thumb and also use the friction created by fingers rubbing against each other for faster attack.

I do use the palm for the loudest possible rasgueado. Although, in reality the fingers still flick off the thumb muscle. This cannot work for continuous rolls.



Erik van Goch -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 19:51:37)

Everything is ok that feels good, doesn't hurt the fingers and produces the required sound(s). I believe Paco Seranno has all his fingers posted left of his thump (to name an exception).



RibNibbler -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 20:08:30)

quote:

Everything is ok that feels good, doesn't hurt the fingers and produces the required sound(s)


not the best advice for a flamenco beginner. no palm trust me. free floating or thumb. save yourself a lot of trouble relearning bad habits later



Sr. Martins -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 20:38:30)

I do 3 kinds, even if its just "in the air" with no guitar. I find that variety of movement helps a lot in muscle relaxation.

- 3 fingers flick from the tip of the thumb
- 3 & 4 flick from meaty base of the thumb (I guess thats what you're calling palm)
- 1, 2, 3 & 4 fingers without touching anything



Erik van Goch -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 21:50:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

quote:

Everything is ok that feels good, doesn't hurt the fingers and produces the required sound(s)


not the best advice for a flamenco beginner. no palm trust me. free floating or thumb. save yourself a lot of trouble relearning bad habits later


Like Grisha i save it for the loudest possible rasguedos. For beginners i use free floating (or string based) fingers for actual playing, but also some pre exercises involving (straight) fingers pressed between the leg and the weight of the hand (so basically imprisoned between the leg and the palm of the hand). They are supposed to free them without lifting the hand (to much), securing long, sliding, parallel (or even slightly inward pressing) finger movements, comparable with playing/pressing/pushing "into the guitar". Next step is to realize that the fingers are normally moving in circles and that small changes in hand position/angle can make a huge difference in how this circle is positioned towards the strings. If the circle goes away from the strings straight away you are hitting air, if it's projected to much "into the guitar" you get stuck in the strings. The actual playing becomes a personal choice/balance between using the circles and/or the (additional) sliding/pressing.

For beginners i advice not to study it to long and to fanatic and without to much force. The average hand is not used to apply muscle force during opening and a beginner has to develop the corresponding muscles. If you do that to enthusiastically you might damage the tendons. That basically counts for every personal time record involving rasgueado's. I damaged a ring finger talon when i was pressed to play rasgueado 4 hour on a row (rehearsing a show and doing the same stuff in the fallowing dance lessons, all focussing on fandangos/sevillanas/tangos).



clevblue -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 21:52:43)

Interesting thanks all. I've tried using my palm but never found it comfortable. The thumb muscle I use for 3 finger rasqueos, but mostly I find as long as my fingernails are almost parallel to the strings as I begin, I get a good sound with them 'free' and am beginning to feel a degree of control. I practice 'eami'with my arm outstretched for a couple of minutes every day as I saw in the Aaron Gilmartin video and it seems to be working although the a finger is considerably weaker just yet.



tri7/5 -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 22:28:01)

Ribnibblers avatar has me distracted... what was the question again?



lukeofgod -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 1 2013 23:21:09)

I would recommend using thumb only when you need that extra punch, otherwise build up your strength using no thumb. Yes, you do not want to over do this while practicing. Remember one finger at a time, very slowly. If you're hand feels like it's starting to curl up into a ball, then take a break and always stretch before and after playing guitar. You will thank yourself in the long run.



RibNibbler -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 2:15:26)

this is good advice Luke



KMMI77 -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 4:31:09)

Loading up against the thumb or palm is fine imo. Playing rasgueos without loading allows you to use a "pushing" motion. The pushing motion is great for modern style playing and creates lots of nice effects. The flicking motion can sound great as well. Experiment with both because they both have their place. And always practice in a relaxed way.



Ricardo -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 13:54:28)

Paco Cepero has one of the most vicious rasgueados in the biz. You can see him here do the same technique over and over, I can't find an example but he can do this thing none stop for several compases. Here you can see it clear from side angles at 1:42, 2:11, 3:41, 4:00 (3 beat jabs a great spot), etc just watch the whole thing and focus on rasgueados.

NO THUMB OR PALM LOADING...I think everyone should learn this way early on. Thumb loading has to be done too, but for a different sound. You can't make that same sound as Paco I think if you load those fingers. Most often students that come that do all rasguedo loaded off of thumb, are totally baffelled how to get free finger rasguedos so loud and fast. But beginners tend to pick it up pretty quick.




FredGuitarraOle -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 14:36:27)

This was my face reading this post ...[&:] I'm a bit confused... What to you guys mean by "no palm for rasgueos"? I always did them like that. Well, not from the palm but from the base of the thumb muscle, like Grisha said. My fingers make pressure and flick from the center of the hand, except for the index when I'm doing i rasgueos only. My rasgueos are very far from perfect, but I think they are acceptable. Do you guys think I should change how I do them? I mean, it feels comfortable how I do them but I got the impression that for some of you guys this is a big mistake.



Ricardo -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 15:02:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FredGuitarraOle

This was my face reading this post ...[&:] I'm a bit confused... What to you guys mean by "no palm for rasgueos"? I always did them like that. Well, not from the palm but from the base of the thumb muscle, like Grisha said. My fingers make pressure and flick from the center of the hand, except for the index when I'm doing i rasgueos only. My rasgueos are very far from perfect, but I think they are acceptable. Do you guys think I should change how I do them? I mean, it feels comfortable how I do them but I got the impression that for some of you guys this is a big mistake.



I feel some people with long fingers naturally touch the thumb muscle or palm when they curl up into a fist. The simple fact is we don't need to make a closed fist to do rasgueado. You can change your technique or not it's up to you. Can you do as cepero does above? If not, and you WANT to beable, I recommend taking a second look at your technique. Simple starting point...however you are doing i by itself, imagine doing the same with m and a fingers.



FredGuitarraOle -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 16:05:42)

Thanks Ricardo. I can't do as Cepero does, I always make pressure on my palm. The i rasgueo alone I flick from the tip of the thumb, just like you guys were saying. But it is really difficult to make a m i rasgueos like that because my sh*tty guitar's saddle has the height of the Empire State Building and I can't have stability in my thumb as it tends to slip between the strings and the guitar top. But I will work on those thumb loading rasgueos. I will also practise the rasgueos with no loading. I just don't understand how Cepero gets such powerfull and loud rasgueos without loading the fingers... any tips?


By the way, what rasgueo is Cepero doing on that video at 1:42 for example? Is he doing this?

7..............8..............9..............10
i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑



Ricardo -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 17:01:37)

quote:

By the way, what rasgueo is Cepero doing on that video at 1:42 for example? Is he doing this?

7..............8..............9..............10
i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑


Yep. There is no real secret other than coordination and practice. The concept of volume is lowering the fingers deeper into the strings vs tickling them lightly at the surface. The fingers themselves need to feel some stiffness but not necessarily muscle type strength. Hope that makes sense.



FredGuitarraOle -> RE: rasgueos : Fingers fire from thumb or palm ? (Apr. 2 2013 18:06:22)

quote:

Yep. There is no real secret other than coordination and practice. The concept of volume is lowering the fingers deeper into the strings vs tickling them lightly at the surface. The fingers themselves need to feel some stiffness but not necessarily muscle type strength. Hope that makes sense.

It makes sense. Thanks again!



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