RE: Manuel Molina (Full Version)

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mark74 -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 5:04:45)

Yerbabuena is mint?

I'd thought it meant weed....no wonder it was schwag



Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 6:10:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander

So the one he refers to as "fatty", is that a daughter of his?



I think fatty and fatso are bad translations. In english it's derogatory but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita". Makes me wonder how do we in English describe a woman with meat on her bones we find attractive? Extra curvy? Super voluptuous? Baby got back?



zata -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 9:30:31)

quote:

I think fatty and fatso are bad translations. In english it's derogatory but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".


It's just as demeaning in Spanish as in English...no woman likes being called "fatso", and it sets a clear precedent of disrespect. It's a Spanish cultural thing to make fun of physical defects or problems...guitarist Perico del Lunar, (Little Pedro of the Mole) had his mole removed, but people made sure to perpetuate the name...singer Gordito de Triana (Triana Fats) was so thin as to be ugly, so people gave him the cruelest nickname...other flamenco nicknames include El Caca (Piece of Poop), el Falo (the Phallus), Aurelio El Tuerto (One-Eyed Aurelio) or a guitarist here in Jerez called Seis Dedos (Six Fingers, since that's what he's got on his left hand, and no, he does not play amazing chords).

When I moved to Spain forty years ago I was appalled at how retarded people or children with Down's were made fun of, but I haven't seen that in a long time except among the lowest classes.

I helped Tao with the subtitles, but could find no credible way to avoid "fatty". If I'd thought it was an endearing term I could have suggested "darling" or "sweetheart", but an inner voice told me that would deform the intent.



el carbonero -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 12:18:55)

El mono,el perro (de paterna),la burra,borrico,el pulga,el cojo....
are pretty name[:D][:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 18:34:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

I think fatty and fatso are bad translations. In english it's derogatory but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".


It's just as demeaning in Spanish as in English...no woman likes being called "fatso", and it sets a clear precedent of disrespect. It's a Spanish cultural thing to make fun of physical defects or problems...guitarist Perico del Lunar, (Little Pedro of the Mole) had his mole removed, but people made sure to perpetuate the name...singer Gordito de Triana (Triana Fats) was so thin as to be ugly, so people gave him the cruelest nickname...other flamenco nicknames include El Caca (Piece of Poop), el Falo (the Phallus), Aurelio El Tuerto (One-Eyed Aurelio) or a guitarist here in Jerez called Seis Dedos (Six Fingers, since that's what he's got on his left hand, and no, he does not play amazing chords).

When I moved to Spain forty years ago I was appalled at how retarded people or children with Down's were made fun of, but I haven't seen that in a long time except among the lowest classes.

I helped Tao with the subtitles, but could find no credible way to avoid "fatty". If I'd thought it was an endearing term I could have suggested "darling" or "sweetheart", but an inner voice told me that would deform the intent.


Well my spanish speaking friends say it all the time to very good friends and loved ones that are heavy, and it is no harm intended, infact the opposite, a lot of love and respect there. To do the same to any english speaking friends or relatives in english would be very disrespectful only causing bad feelings or worse to get ostrisize or invoke a fight. I understand the need to translate something for what he says, but in english it sounds like he wants to put her down for being overweight, yet I know darn well what he means and how much he cares for her and has no problem with how she looks. "my corpulent beauty..." or something is closer. [:D]



zata -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 28 2013 18:44:23)

quote:

Well my spanish speaking friends say it all the time to very good friends and loved ones that are heavy, and it is no harm intended,


Yes, and "some of my best friends are black". If you're American you will have learned to detect this kind of cloaked insult.

As I said, making fun of people's weaknesses is a purely cultural habit which is slowly fading away in Spain. Upper-class Spaniards no longer call people fatso, bug-eyes or gimp. Times change.



mark74 -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 3:24:47)

I think of the aforementioned nicknames I'd choose El Falo if pressed to choose one...unless, of course, it was meant ironically



Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 5:37:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

Well my spanish speaking friends say it all the time to very good friends and loved ones that are heavy, and it is no harm intended,


Yes, and "some of my best friends are black". If you're American you will have learned to detect this kind of cloaked insult.

As I said, making fun of people's weaknesses is a purely cultural habit which is slowly fading away in Spain. Upper-class Spaniards no longer call people fatso, bug-eyes or gimp. Times change.


Sure, spain, only culture to do that. Anyway, nobody else speak spanish want to pipe in? fine. manuel was being derogatory about his wife. [8|]



machopicasso -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 9:37:17)

quote:

Sure, spain, only culture to do that. Anyway, nobody else speak spanish want to pipe in? fine. manuel was being derogatory about his wife.


Unless I've misunderstood zata, I don't think she's implying Manuel was trying to be "derogatory about his wife." I think she was just describing a cultural practice, and one which she acknowledged as not being unique to Spain (cf. "If you're American..."). Derogatory terms -- like terms of hate speech -- can be complex. Even if one's intentions are good; if one traffics in derogatory terms -- perhaps because that's the cultural norm --, then one runs the risk of offending those to whom one hopes to show affection.



machopicasso -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 9:41:01)

quote:

I helped Tao with the subtitles, but could find no credible way to avoid "fatty". If I'd thought it was an endearing term I could have suggested "darling" or "sweetheart", but an inner voice told me that would deform the intent.


I've had a few translation gigs. I think you made the right call.



kudo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 13:30:22)

quote:

but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".

not just in spain. but mexico too.

at least i know that in mexico and argentina, close friends call each using insulting words. so instead of saying "hey bro/man..." , they would say things like " hey as*hole...." , " hey **** ...." , its so common that its just normal and those words among close friends doesnt sound insulting anymore...



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 14:22:34)

I have spent a lot of time around Mexicans. My experience is they rib each other and call each other names mercilessly. The most common word in a kitchen with a lot of Mexicans is "way" (sounds like that, at least), which seems to be used something like "dummy" or "chump". You'll also hear "cabrooooon", often extended like that. If someone's fat, he's panzon, if someone's bald, his nickname is pelon. Any person of Asian descent or who even looks like it is Chino.

However make sure you don't call people "way" indescriminately; you have to be at a certain level of friendship or it's an insult. I stepped over the line calling a chef "Bernaco" (Bernardo was his name, "naco" means something like white trash for Mexicans). He used to call me "Orgullo Latino", as a joke because I play Latin music even though I'm not of Latino descent. Keep in mind a lot of this must be lower class mannerisms and locker room talk, and not proper for formal circumstances. It is entirely possible that Manuel's way of talking to his wife is acceptable in his area, but not politically correct or legitimately insulting for middle class or upper class people.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 14:34:29)

By the translation, "fatty" sounds a bit harsh but I guess there isnt a better way to translate it unless there's somekind of explanation to go along with it.

Gordita means fatty but as someone else has pointed out, its a different culture. He says Gordita in a positive way but I cant find a positive context where the word "fatty" would fit in.

Maybe "big momma", "chubby" or "chunky lady"?



Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 16:54:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kudo

quote:

but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".

not just in spain. but mexico too.

at least i know that in mexico and argentina, close friends call each using insulting words. so instead of saying "hey bro/man..." , they would say things like " hey as*hole...." , " hey **** ...." , its so common that its just normal and those words among close friends doesnt sound insulting anymore...



The gorda or gordita thing is not a class thing. Its super normal amongst spanish speaking people the world over. and as I said endearing. Sure there are derogatory uses of other words or nicknames and the simple point I make is that to translate into english you shouldn't do it literally if you want the meaning to come through. Otherwise the guy is painted in a bad light suddenly despite the context.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 29 2013 17:57:30)

"Big momma" would come across much better [8D]



machopicasso -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 9:23:19)

quote:

My experience is they rib each other and call each other names mercilessly...If someone's fat, he's panzon, if someone's bald, his nickname is pelon


Ah, that explains it. Years ago, I was walking -- gringo with a shaved head -- through Managua, Nicaragua, and passed a family of three. Their son, who was like 8 or 9 years old, said, "Hola, pelon." I was slightly surprised by that. But I was more surprised at the reaction of his parents. Instead of chastising him for his rude behavior (as my parents would've done), they laughed!



machopicasso -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 9:28:34)

quote:

Sure there are derogatory uses of other words or nicknames and the simple point I make is that to translate into english you shouldn't do it literally if you want the meaning to come through. Otherwise the guy is painted in a bad light suddenly despite the context.


That's a fair point. But part of the problem for the translator is that the derogatory history of the word is part of its connotation. If you translate the word as something completely affectionate (e.g. "darling" or "dear"), then you lose that nuance. The challenge for the translator is to capture the echo of the derogatory connotation while giving pride of place to the affectionate intent, if that's what was going on. Perhaps Rui Martins's suggestion of "Big momma" is the way to go...



zata -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 10:27:00)

The verse in question, “She’s my girlfriend, my woman, my lover, my friend, my little girl, my teacher…she’s not my mother”, is incompatible with “Big Momma” (which also sounds a little comical in my opinion). Translation cannot be taken out of context.

Furthermore, don’t confuse a shared language with shared cultural customs. In Spain we do not eat spicy food or wear big hats with pom-poms. I can’t speak for Latin America, but in Spain, derogatory nicknames are a cultural tradition among the lower classes. For this reason an overweight woman will not protest being called “gordita”, although she would surely prefer something nicer.

Times change. I just translated a Paco de Lucía interview from 1986 <http://www.deflamenco.com/revista/entrevistas/paco-de-lucia-interviewed-in-1986-1.html> in which he says some very demeaning things about women I’m sure he wouldn’t want to repeat now. In a few years Spanish men will no longer call their wives “my woman” or “gordita”.

It’s not the translator’s job to second-guess, forgive or cover up. “Fatty” was deemed kinder than “fatso”, and given the circumstances, is the best translation. Others can decide whether there is any ill intent.

Footnote: I have an obese friend who is a cantaor, and he has an unwieldy first name that doesn’t lend itself to any obvious nickname. When I once asked what to call him he said “my friends just call me ‘Gordo’” (Fats). There was a faint smile, but he looked so ashamed I wished I’d never asked.



Escribano -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 11:30:41)

quote:

The most common word in a kitchen with a lot of Mexicans is "way" (sounds like that, at least), which seems to be used something like "dummy" or "chump".


It's güey (pronounced "way") and is used as in "some dude [güey]" or "I am such an idiot [güey]".

It derives from buey (an ox).



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 14:22:52)

Thanks, Simon, I used to know how to spell it. :) I heard one of our piano movers, who was Columbian, explaining to his gringo partner that it was buey, ox, but it didn't seem to make sense with how I've heard it and the way the guys would use it. I used to love learning the slang, because it contrasted to much with the antiseptic "Hola, Juan! Me llamo Mike!" stuff from school.



Ricardo -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 15:32:30)

quote:

In a few years Spanish men will no longer call their wives “my woman” or “gordita”.


Few years huh? [8|]



Grisha -> RE: Manuel Molina (Mar. 30 2013 15:43:05)

I think "gordo" and "gorda" is said to overweight and thin alike. I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there are sensitive people that would be hurt.

Paco came to Russia that same year, and when asked the same question about women guitarists, said that yes, there are good flamenco players out there. Something like that.

As for Paco de Rusia from the interview, he was hardly a beginner. He had a formidable technique and lots of charisma. I am glad I met him before he passed away.




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