solea vs solea por buleria (Full Version)

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rickm -> solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 14:18:23)

help me get a clearer notion of this. Is a solea por buleria a faster solea? Can you play the same solea falsetas in a solea por buleria or are they special for that form? Other than raise the tempo lets say are there significant differences in the solea por buleria? Accents differnet whatever? I just dont understand the difference.

I know stupid question number 46 bear with me iM learning. I a nooobie.



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 16:48:26)

SImple answer is yes they are the same. In fact they can be EXACTLY the same such that only the singing is different. But to be more practical for students it's generally accepted that guitar wise, Solea is usually slower, heavier feeling perhaps less strict tempo wise more elastic. Solea por buleria is generally more rhythmically driving and solid tempo wise. THe key is a minor difference but can be part of it too. I make a point to compare the differences with my two compositions.

Solea



Solea por buleria



To show cante makes no difference to the guitar, here is BULERIA POR SOLEA



vs SOLEA



Everything is "POR MEDIO" I play, in same key.



bursche -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 17:07:52)

Ricardo, your videos make it crystal clear.
But one question remains: Is there a difference between Soleá por Bulería and Bulería por Soleá?...hmmm....



rickm -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 17:11:14)

ok let me try and understand the solea por buleria sounds a lot like a buleria to me. Much more driving and percussive. So, if I play a traditional kind of solea falseta, like ramon montoya or bronce gitano by sabicas but play it faster and with more ras, that is more percussive do I now have a out of synch solea or a solea por buleria. I might be wrong but it seemed to me that in the solea por buleria your actually using more typical buleria chording whatever. Am I being too naive here?



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 18:54:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

Ricardo, your videos make it crystal clear.
But one question remains: Is there a difference between Soleá por Bulería and Bulería por Soleá?...hmmm....


Sort of yes. Solea por buleria evolved as a term I think because of dance, and the guitar followed suit. In the dance "solea por buleria" there can be a number of cantes used. Buleria larga or corta or Sordo la Luz (see norman's site for the 3 melodies) are popular but mixed with a number of soleas too... frijones 2 mainly but couple others that are 3 lines are used. (again Norman has em laid out). Of course proper bulerias de jerez is typical finale. Over time, those songs mixed together it seems have taken on the same label as the dance. "solea por buleria". It is appropriate to refer to cante of only the 3 melodies mixed up Buleria larga corta and Sordo...as "BULERIA POR SOLEA" that would be the correct terminology and usage....but when refering to guitar playing only those terms are interchangeable and mean the same thing. Meanwhile any mix of solea's can get miss labled or generally labeled as "solea por buleria". For dance, "Solea" or "soleares" implies the slower tempo PLUS the specific cante styles of Alcala. Indeed, most of the times I hear any Alcala style sung, regardless if a buleria larga gets tossed into the mix, the label "SOLEA" is given.

Not sure if that makes it more clear or more confusing, but the main point is the labels are used in different ways depending on context so in certain cases, YES there is a difference, others NO they mean the same thing.

To put it most clearly, the first cante I accompanied is buleria por solea and only that (the orginal audio without guitar was miss labled "solea al golpe"), and the second cante is Solea with a buleria larga mixed in there....but guitar wise I think of my way to play for both as the same, and would call it "solea por buleria" just like my second solo piece above.



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 19:05:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rickm

ok let me try and understand the solea por buleria sounds a lot like a buleria to me. Much more driving and percussive. So, if I play a traditional kind of solea falseta, like ramon montoya or bronce gitano by sabicas but play it faster and with more ras, that is more percussive do I now have a out of synch solea or a solea por buleria. I might be wrong but it seemed to me that in the solea por buleria your actually using more typical buleria chording whatever. Am I being too naive here?


Solea (por medio) solea por buleria and buleria all have the same chording and such. Likewise Solea por arriba, solea por buleria and buleria too all in E same deal. Your ear is most likely just latching on to the similarities of the key of A, hence relating buleria to solea por buleria more closely. The TRUE difference is the phrasing and feel once the tempo is increased (watch out for buzz words like aire soniquete duende etc). Hence there will be things that don't feel right for all 3, but oddly you will find a couple little things that all 3 can make use of. In general I would say the solea por buleria phrasing will be MORE like fast solea, rather than slow buleria....hope that makes sense. To get an understanding of tempo differences, solea for baile will be super slow so not counting that Solea you will hear at 110 to 120 BPM, Solea por buleria more like 140-160 bpm, and buleria anything over 200 bpm or so. IF you attempt to play buleria at 170 say, then solea por buleria at 170, the difference will be quite noticeable. But try the same for Solea between 120 to 150 and you realize the forms are the exact same.

Ricardo



rickm -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 20:11:09)

ricardo that gets it for me thank you so much for taking the time to explain it.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 20:11:57)

That's a super helpful explanation, Ricardo, thanks! I was wondering about the difference between bulerias por solea and solea por bulerias recently as well.



Morante -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 17 2013 20:55:33)

Soleá is a cante (palo), soleá por bulerías is another. Listen to singers fron Jerez, where soleá por bulerías is usually sung well and pay attention to how the guitar accompanies it.



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 28 2013 10:14:56)

quote:

But one question remains: Is there a difference between Soleá por Bulería and Bulería por Soleá?...hmmm....


As always, the only constant and reliable difference is the cante. Just as caña is sort of like soleá, but not, soleá por bulería (also known as bulería por soleá, bulerías al golpe and bulería pa'escuchar) is no different from soleá...except for the cante.

Por medio and por arriba were never good identifiers since the position responds to the singer's vocal register (women for example usually need to sing soleá por medio), and many young guitarists don't even bother with cejillas since the diapasón is their playground and no chord is left unplayed. Not to mention the fact that these specific cantes were developed, and continue to often be sung without guitar accompaniment (bulerías "al golpe" refers to knocking out compás on a table), so proceed at your own risk if you rely on guitar markers to identify the cante.

Tempo is also a poor marker because soleá was traditionally sung at a good clip (in Utrera it still is), and it was only around the 1970s it slowed way down in response to performing dancers who wanted more time to build drama and intensity, especially in tablaos were very long dance numbers were common.

There is no short-cut, no substitute for knowing cante.



mark74 -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Mar. 31 2013 19:11:05)

Theres a video of Diego del Gastor performing a Fandango por Solea on Youtube, I didn't even know that existed, but I guess anything can be mixed with Solea



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 1 2013 17:27:09)

Fandango personales (fandango naturales or fandango grande, same thing freely sung but based on the form that originates in Huelva) were often performed in the old days either to normal fandango compas, although stretched, loose compas, to Solea compas, or totally free. One of my favorites of old was Manuel Vallejo, with guitarists like Manolo de Huelva. I love the form because it gets to the heart about a dying accompaniment style, that being, keep time for free sung meldies and catch chord changes as they come.

In the recent thread about "hot tocaoras", I posted a video of a young woman playing that style for a singer that imitates Vallejo. Another is done by Platero de Alcala in Rito y geografia, based on a singer from alcala (home of solea styles) named "El Currilla de Alcala". In theory, you could sing fandango in a similar manner over ANY compas, even tangos rumba or bulerias. I have in fact heard many times fandango por buleria. Some great examples, Chano Lobato on the first disc of guitarist Juan Habichuela, and the famous, only available (youtube) Live boot leg recording of Camaron and Paco de Lucia, he ends the bulera with fandango. As far as doing it over tango or rumba, I can only admit it might be a taste issue for some people. Gipsy kings sing granaina in one very latin flavored rumba. For sure, the fandango por solea is a cool form that is pretty much dead amongst modern singers. Hope some young people pick it back up soon.

Ricardo



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 1 2013 18:13:10)

quote:

Fandango personales (fandango naturales or fandango grande, same thing freely sung but based on the form that originates in Huelva) were often performed in the old days either to normal fandango compas, although stretched, loose compas, to Solea compas, or totally free.


No, fandangos personales means attributed to an individual (such as fandango del Niño León, fandango de Manuel Torre...) rather than to a geographical region (such as fandangos de Encinasola, fandangos de Santiponce...).

However, fandangos naturales means free-form compás. So you can have a fandango personal which has compás (such as the fandango of Frasquito Yerbabuena or the fandango of Pérez de Guzmán), just as you might have a free-form fandango personal. And fandangos don't have to be from the province of Huelva, although that's where there's the greatest variety of styles.

Any fandango can be sung to the compás of soleá por bulería, and then we say "fandango por soleá", although the cante itself is unchanged. Vallejo triggered a flurry of popularity of fandango por soleá, but nowadays it's usually only interpreted by older singers from Utrera and Lebrija.

But most of all, please people: there's no such thing as "fandango grande". I think Don Pohren may have used the phrase for American readers, but you won't hear it from Spanish singers or guitarists. (Yes, I know Juan Serrano uses the term...guess where he's been living for the last 50 years).



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 1 2013 19:15:38)

quote:

But most of all, please people: there's no such thing as "fandango grande". I think Don Pohren may have used the phrase for American readers, but you won't hear it from Spanish singers or guitarists. (Yes, I know Juan Serrano uses the term...guess where he's been living for the last 50 years).


Many gitanos (FROM SPAIN) still use that term, singers and guitarists. I agree it sounds pretentious, but if they are really into fandango it's understandable to me. I understood naturales and personales to be interchangeable when describe fandangos that were not from Huelva, or from a specific region outside of Huelva. Which fandangos naturales are NOT personal creations? If naturales only means "free of compas" why not "fandango libre"?



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 1 2013 20:17:05)

quote:

Many gitanos (FROM SPAIN) still use that term, singers and guitarists. I agree it sounds pretentious, but if they are really into fandango it's understandable to me. I understood naturales and personales to be interchangeable when describe fandangos that were not from Huelva, or from a specific region outside of Huelva. Which fandangos naturales are NOT personal creations? If naturales only means "free of compas" why not "fandango libre"?


As soon as I moved to Spain, I realized the term "fandango grande" was not understood or used by anyone here. If singers or guitarists use it around you, it's because they've heard it from other Americans and want to speak in terms that will be quickly understood. In Spain, use it at your own risk.
Fandangos personales are usually, but not always naturales. These terms as used in Spain are not interchangeable. If I tell a guitarist to play fandangos, he'll probably launch directly into free-form accompaniment, but if he has his doubts he might ask "¿naturales?". Never will he ask "¿personales?" because it matters little to him which styles I sung, although it's crucial to know whether he is to play free-form or rhythmic. The bottom line is, these words are not synonymous.

Fandangos can be from Huelva capital or towns of Huelva, or they can be from other provinces, including outside Andalucía. They can be personales and/or naturales. Fandangos naturales also happen to be personal creations, but not all fandangos personales are naturales. Just like all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

Why not "fandango libre"? No reason whatsoever. Convince enough people and maybe it'll catch on.



RibNibbler -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 1 2013 22:59:18)

See Ricardo, Its like fruits and apples not how you say, because Spain is different than the Spain you have visited and the people from Spain you work with are from that other Spain near Columbia so get it straight Mr. Know-It-All



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 2 2013 13:13:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

See Ricardo, Its like fruits and apples not how you say, because Spain is different than the Spain you have visited and the people from Spain you work with are from that other Spain near Columbia so get it straight Mr. Know-It-All


fruits and apples and ribs, got it. [:D]



estebanana -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Apr. 2 2013 22:27:11)

I was wondering about the difference between French Toast and French fries?

French people seem to think they don't exist, but I know my French friend likes Mc Donald's French Fries, but denies the existence of French Toast. And to make matters more complicated there is a local restaurant that serves a large portion of French Toast called French Toast Grande.

Also confusing is the Starbucks way of say small, medium and large for the various coffee cup sizes. The middle size is called a Grande, and the small a Tall. I don't even know what the large is called, but it sounds like an Italian word, Il Duche or something...??

Why can't these places just call the large French Toast order with a medium coffee a Fandango Combo and be done with it?



tele -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 18:02:51)

Just a quick question, the compas for solea por bulerias starts on beat one like in normal solea, not 12? I just wonder about this because I googled about it and studioflamenco website says it starts on 12 like normal bulerias



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 19:06:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Just a quick question, the compas for solea por bulerias starts on beat one like in normal solea, not 12? I just wonder about this because I googled about it and studioflamenco website says it starts on 12 like normal bulerias



Let's put it this way....it's fine to think of it starting on 12, so long as you don't actually play ANYTHING until beat 1. [;)]

Unless you want to of course.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 20:45:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I was wondering about the difference between French Toast and French fries?

French people seem to think they don't exist, but I know my French friend likes Mc Donald's French Fries, but denies the existence of French Toast. And to make matters more complicated there is a local restaurant that serves a large portion of French Toast called French Toast Grande.



My first time on the Paris Metro I noticed an ad in the station. It portrayed a bottle with a familiar distinctive shape containing a pinkish salad dressing, known as "French Dressing" throughout the USA. The caption on the ad said, "Sauce Americaine."

RNJ



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 21:33:40)

quote:

Just a quick question, the compas for solea por bulerias starts on beat one like in normal solea, not 12? I just wonder about this because I googled about it and studioflamenco website says it starts on 12 like normal bulerias


The concept of "starting" is very limited, however it could be said that the 12 beat in SxB has a much greater presence than beat one, compared for example to soleá, where 12 is a wishy-washy beat.



tele -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 22:06:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata


The concept of "starting" is very limited


I don't think so if you're supposed to start falsetas and phrases on beat 1 or 12, that makes a starting point and I don't see how it's limited



BarkellWH -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 21 2014 22:39:08)

quote:

My first time on the Paris Metro I noticed an ad in the station. It portrayed a bottle with a familiar distinctive shape containing a pinkish salad dressing, known as "French Dressing" throughout the USA. The caption on the ad said, "Sauce Americaine."


There are many examples of mislabeled food.

What we Americans know as a "hamburger" has no such name in Hamburg, Germany. In Hamburg and other parts of Germany it is known as a "Frickadelle."

What we call a "Danish pastry" did not originate in Denmark. It's origin is in Vienna, Austria, carried to Denmark by Viennese pastry-makers.

Cheers,

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 6:23:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata


The concept of "starting" is very limited


I don't think so if you're supposed to start falsetas and phrases on beat 1 or 12, that makes a starting point and I don't see how it's limited



Her point is that it is cyclical... there are not such rules for "supposed to start"....you can start on 7. Many phrases start between beats 1 and 2 as a completion of a triple beat type phrase that WOULD have started on 12 but we are picking up to beat 3 accent. etc etc. Likewise it is wrong to assume buleria "starts on 12". There are many falsetas that start on 1 or near about 10 as pick up to stronger beats. A nice tomatito falseta from "casa del Herrero" starts between 11 and 12 as a pick up single note, and later there is half compas etc etc etc.....so let go of this mentality that "there is supposed to be a starting point" for any of the palos.

I don't enjoy contradicting Estela , but I would not say beat 12 of solea (lento) is "wishy washy".... but for sure there are times you don't hear it in the music...but the feeling of it is still strong.
Ricardo



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 7:38:00)

quote:

I would not say beat 12 of solea (lento) is "wishy washy"....


12 is a weak beat in soleá compared to SxB...unless you're talking about how it's played in Utrera, which is actually a compás of SxB even though the cante is soleá.

Overall, the slow tempos became fashionable in the 1970s, probably to accommodate dancers' wanting to add drama.

Festival de Jerez began last night...anyone passing through town? I'm always in row 16 seat 25 of the Villamarta if anyone wants to say hi. Although this year the tabancos and peñas, both free, have the most to offer.



edguerin -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 8:27:12)

quote:

What we Americans know as a "hamburger" has no such name in Hamburg, Germany. In Hamburg and other parts of Germany it is known as a "Frickadelle."

or "Bulette", "Fleischküchle" ...

However, nowadays they're known as "Hamburger" [;)]



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 14:29:49)

quote:

12 is a weak beat in soleá compared to SxB...unless you're talking about how it's played in Utrera, which is actually a compás of SxB even though the cante is soleá.


Sure Utrera, and Alcala, and Sevilla, and Cadiz, and Jerez....but everywhere else it's a weak beat. [8D]



zata -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 15:40:04)

quote:

Sure Utrera, and Alcala, and Sevilla, and Cadiz, and Jerez....but everywhere else it's a weak beat.


Only Utrera singers prefer the SxB accompaniment for soleá, they're famous for that sound. Occasionally Lebrija singers do it too, because of the ties with Utrera, and some have even taken to calling it "soleá rítmica", which makes oldtimers chuckle, in order to distinguish it from standard soleá, slow and phrased.



Ricardo -> RE: solea vs solea por buleria (Feb. 22 2014 17:17:01)

quote:

Only Utrera singers prefer the SxB accompaniment for soleá,


Sure they are the only ones...right...[8|]

Utrera:


Jerez:



(scratching my head...[:D])



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