RE: Maple back and sides? (Full Version)

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Sean -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Mar. 16 2013 15:26:37)

His opinion is wrong, sorry.
Seasoned Maple is one of the most crack resistant woods ever used in guitar making.
Even flatsawn, Birdseye Maple, with all those little defects and potential weak points is more crack resistant then a lot of Rosewoods.
I wonder how much extra doming he uses for Brazilian?



Alain Moisan -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Mar. 16 2013 20:58:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: MiSz

I'm working on a birdseye maple guitar. Today i showed it to an experienced luthier. He said the matter about doming a maple back is because in his opinion maple cracks a bit more often than other woods.
And a back doming is of course a good crack protection.

Well cured maple is no more prone to cracking than any other wood. Perhaps you can explain how doming of the back is good crack protection. My understanding of the reason for doming is to add stiffness and eliminate parallel surfaces.


Maple being more prone to cracking is news to me as well. But doming a top pr back does provide extra security against cracking. Du to the wood shrinking like a dry sponge, a top or back will always 'drop' towards the inside of the guitar when it is exposed to dry conditions. A domed top or back (compared to a true flat surface) will provide more margin of manoeuvre to the top or back before the wood tensions is great enough to crack the wood.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Mar. 16 2013 21:59:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan

Maple being more prone to cracking is news to me as well. But doming a top pr back does provide extra security against cracking. Du to the wood shrinking like a dry sponge, a top or back will always 'drop' towards the inside of the guitar when it is exposed to dry conditions. A domed top or back (compared to a true flat surface) will provide more margin of manoeuvre to the top or back before the wood tensions is great enough to crack the wood.

I did say well cured but your point seems sound. It just never occurred to me that there was any other reason than the ones I stated,



estebanana -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Mar. 17 2013 18:03:36)

Crack: wipe it, don't smoke it.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Mar. 18 2013 6:29:08)

My 2 pesetas: I dome every guitar about the same, but I must say that I have found maple to be one of the woods that is least stable to changes in humidity. That is, it expands and contracts a lot compared to other woods, so I can understand why someone might like to dome it more, to absorb such changes without cracking.



Ned Milburn -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 4:21:38)

Hello All,

I was recommended this forum by a local flamenco guitarist and was interested in this thread since I will begin building 2 flamenco guitars (again for local guitarists) very soon - one with Nootka (or Canadian) cypress (aka: Alaskan yellow cedar) and one with maple sides and back.

Here is what I can add, starting with stating the obvious.

Wood expands and contracts at a higher rate longitudinally (across the grain) than parallel to the grain. Each species has its own expansion and contraction rates, and the variation between the longitudinal and parallel expansion also varies depending upon species. Hence, if a back were to be built flat, it would deform the sides as it gained or lost humidity compared to its condition during construction. This is one of the reasons why backs are domed. The side to side dome on a guitar back allows the dome to increase or decrease as humidity is gained or lost from the wood, avoiding deformation of the sides.

There is a spectacular resource for any wood-worker called "The Wood Database". Since I cannot flip browser tabs while writing this post without losing the draft, I'll only include one link that I was able to copy.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/bigleaf-maple/

You can click the upper right "search by common name" and find different woods to compare expansion rates with the readings of the maple. If I remember correctly, the expansion/contraction rates are given near the bottom of the wood's specifications.

Interesting to note is the fact that Honduras mahogany has a very similar expansion rate longitudinally and parallel to the grain. This is why mahogany is widely considered "dimensionally stable". Brazilian rosewood has a very low longitudinal expansion rate. Indian rosewood is medium, while maple (big leaf) has a higher rate of longitudinal expansion. Also of note is Alaskan yellow cedar, which is much more stable than I would have thought for such a soft and light wood. These specs give evidence for various people's claims that maple is "less stable" than other side/back wood choices. Also, this could be the reason that some builders may decide to build a slightly greater dome in maple backed guitars than other wooded guitars. (Although I am also of the opinion as a few other forum members stated that there shouldn't be a problem building a maple backed guitar with a standard dome.)

I believe it is a good idea to understand a species' properties before working with it. Nowadays, with resources such as the Wood Database, we have access to information that centuries ago would have only been gained by direct experience, empiricism, and/or working as an apprentice to a master who already experienced different woods' properties through direct empiricism.

Cheers! I'm looking forward to reading and participating further in this forum.



Ricardo -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 17:24:48)

quote:

These specs give evidence for various people's claims that maple is "less stable" than other side/back wood choices. Also, this could be the reason that some builders may decide to build a slightly greater dome in maple backed guitars than other wooded guitars. (Although I am also of the opinion as a few other forum members stated that there shouldn't be a problem building a maple backed guitar with a standard dome.)


Cool thanks. I was wondering for a bit if perhaps the flamed longitudinal design figure of the maple was producing a sort of optical illusion that it was more domed than it really was. I think so because comparing to my other guitars it certainly is domed a very slightly bit more but not as much as I was honestly thinking at first.



estebanana -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 19:52:14)

Jason picked up his new maple guitar last night, he was reading this thread about maple. He said:

"Hmm I think maple must be pretty good guitar wood if the Italians used it for making cello backs and sides, seems it's proved to be pretty stable over the last 400 years."

I never give it a second thought. Maple rocks the Casbah. But of course I don't really make proper gutiars because I brush on the shellac and then level it later, so I don't really count as legitimate. And of course Jason plays all these "jazz chords" so he's pretty lost too.

Although, he liked the new maple guitar so much, ( long pause) he picked it up last night and he's taking it out on a tour for the next week. I thank God those Italians used maple or I would never have known and might have read some newfangled books or something legitimate instead of going off half-cocked on my own and making dilettante guitars with brushed on shellac.

Videos pending.



Morante -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 20:37:25)

The best guitar I ever played was a Rodriguez which Postigo had. Spruce top, maple back and sides. Told me it was not for sale. I believe he sold it to a Japanese for 25,000 euros.



estebanana -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 20:45:08)

Maple is an underrated guitar wood.



Ricardo -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 21:24:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Maple is an underrated guitar wood.


yep, it't the new old blanca. great for jazz chords even if it is 400 years old. those violins and cellos don't look flat backed though.



estebanana -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 22:38:50)

quote:

hose violins and cellos don't look flat backed though.


A lot of cellos did have flat backs, they were converted bass viola da gambas. They added a bit of wood at the top to round out the shoulders and then changed the neck and top to a cello neck and top. There is vary famous Strad cello that used to be a gamba.

But of course those Old Italians did not know the Foro rules of doming at an 18" radius so they wee obviously dilettante failures.



Ruphus -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 18 2013 22:39:13)

She had the sweetest nylon trebles I recall and beautiful sustain.
( Only returned her for too little separation.)





Ruphus

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mark74 -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 21 2013 6:29:54)

Are the midrange Cordobas made with English sycamore, hence why they sometimes say Sycamore and sometimes say Maple?



krichards -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 21 2013 6:56:41)

English Sycamore, Acer Pseudoplatanus, widely grown all over Europe and western Asia.
This is the wood used in violins etc. and is an excellent guitar wood.

I think this is the wood referred to in this thread, but there are similar species both in Europe and the Americas referred to as Maples.
Its confusing!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 21 2013 7:58:53)

Popular names are always confusing when it comes to wood. When i say oak, I think about another tree than a canadian does.
To me its extremely confusing that in England, you call a tree sycamore when sycamore is somthing else other places.
It adds to the confusion that europe is full of different languages and not just english.

So this thread is confusing, because we are talking about different species and using one word.
To generalice, I think that instruments built in Europe are made with Acer Pseudoplatanus also called maple, arce, ahorn, English Sycamore and so on.
In the US, maple is other species of the Acer family.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 21 2013 8:05:28)

quote:

She had the sweetest nylon trebles I recall and beautiful sustain.
( Only returned her for too little separation.)


Those are my experiences as well and I´m not the biggest fan of maple (Acer Pseudoplatanus) in flamenco guitars.
I like it a lot in steel strung, plucked instruments like acoustic steel string guitars and the whole mandolin family, where it gives some elegancy to the trebles. And of course, its the king of bowed instruments,

On classicals, it can make very sweet sounding instruments, but the ones I´ve tried (not many) lacked projection and power.

I think a lot of people like maples mostly because it looks good



Ruphus -> RE: Maple back and sides? (Apr. 21 2013 11:22:28)

That could be; "white" seems attractive.
Neighbours son had a mediocre beginner guitar that was somewhat bearable at least. Recently then he came by to show me his new guitar and ask me why it couldn´t hold the tune. ( hidden hairline crack at neck tail )
The thing was one of the worst instruments I´ve seen. And as he couldn´t expalin why he had obtained it in exchange for his former guitar I said: "Because this one is laquered in white, isn´t it?"
And he smiled embarassed.

I had bought a cheapo acoustic bass of maple B&S from China.
It was on the soft side, but it sounded so totally like rock and like electrically distorted.
Absolutely inspiring. You would just rock the chair away. I miss it.
Too bad that it was built of green wood apparently. The top sunk in stored in a case at moderate humidity conditions. :0(

Ruphus



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