Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Full Version)

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tele -> Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 5 2013 21:20:46)

Here's a pic to demonstrate the location of the cracks, it's not my guitar, I might get pics later


OK so I have a guitar that has cracks in those locations(between all rollers). What would be the best way to fix them so new tuners can be installed properly? So far I have though of only putting some superglue into the cracks but is there a better solution?
I would like to install new tuners to my guitar but I'm afraid the cracks might cause some trouble. Thanks

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 5 2013 21:37:22)

If there are cracks between the roller holes, the best repair is to cut out a V shaped splint, make a piece of wood that matches and glue it. Its a pretty simple operation and it,ll be as good as new or better. you can also try with glue as you say, but superglue (cyano) and cedar is reported to be troublesome. hot hide glue will be better. Also, the problem is that the new tuners screws will enter in the glue joint.



keith -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 13:54:42)

another option might be to get a dowel rod of similar material (or harder) and drill out the affected areas--not all the way through though. then glue the dowel rod piece into the hole. this is pretty much the same procedure as anders mentioned just easier. think of drilling a tooth with a cavity. since the machines will cover the affected area getting an absolute match to the headstock wood may not be that important.

if you do not want to go the above route you could clean the affected area (remove splinters and loose wood) and use epoxy mixed with saw dust to make an epoxy paste that will be a very close match in color. epoxy paste is pretty strong and once dried one can drill into it.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 15:28:20)

How deep the splint should be, should it be the lenght of the cracks and what kind of saw would be best for the job?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

If there are cracks between the roller holes, the best repair is to cut out a V shaped splint, make a piece of wood that matches and glue it. Its a pretty simple operation and it,ll be as good as new or better. you can also try with glue as you say, but superglue (cyano) and cedar is reported to be troublesome. hot hide glue will be better. Also, the problem is that the new tuners screws will enter in the glue joint.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 15:59:09)

The old school repair would be to chisel a V channel going 2/3 down the wood on the headstock, from hole to hole with a 90 degree in the bottom of the V and then make a 90 degree square or triangular stick of cedar, glue it in and cut away the part that sticks out. It sounds difficult, but its not so difficult. Besides, it looks professional.
Keith´s ideas are good as well and you can also do the chisel thing and glue in the stick with epoxy if your presision is not as good as you wanted it to be. Epoxy has the advantage of being gapfilling and it actually gets stronger if your precission is not specially good.
If you cant find thin epoxy resin to mix with wooden powder, then you can use a thick epoxy like ARALDIT.

Epoxy is extremely forgiving and strong. I´ve built wooden clinker (lapstrake) boats and the epoxy is most probably the strongest of the whole boat



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 17:18:03)

Thanks.

Any suggestions on how I can make the cracks less visible from the roller side of the headstock? Would titebond and some fine sandpaper help?



estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 21:29:38)

quote:

f there are cracks between the roller holes, the best repair is to cut out a V shaped splint, make a piece of wood that matches and glue it. Its a pretty simple operation and it,ll be as good as new or better. you can also try with glue as you say, but superglue (cyano) and cedar is reported to be troublesome. hot hide glue will be better. Also, the problem is that the new tuners screws will enter in the glue joint.


Anders,

Why not just get some hide glue deep into the cracks and clamp them shut overnight? Then fill the old screw holes and then pre drill them for new screws?

Less is more.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 21:49:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

f there are cracks between the roller holes, the best repair is to cut out a V shaped splint, make a piece of wood that matches and glue it. Its a pretty simple operation and it,ll be as good as new or better. you can also try with glue as you say, but superglue (cyano) and cedar is reported to be troublesome. hot hide glue will be better. Also, the problem is that the new tuners screws will enter in the glue joint.


Anders,

Why not just get some hide glue deep into the cracks and clamp them shut overnight? Then fill the old screw holes and then pre drill them for new screws?

Less is more.


Sounds easy. Would titebond do the job? And for filling the old holes, is the toothpick method fine?



estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 6 2013 22:23:58)

quote:

Sounds easy. Would titebond do the job? And for filling the old holes, is the toothpick method fine?


Titbond in that situation would not work. It has to be hot hide glue. You want to encourage the glue to 'wick' into the crack very deeply by if possible spreading the crack slightly without damaging the headstock. Hot hide glue can seep deeply into those types of seams if you know how to work it in. You can assist the glue by leading it in with a very thin metal blade like the thin tip of scalpel. If you can get enough strong glue in there and clamp it tight it will be good.

Grafting in a section of wood is much harder if you don't do that kind of thing every day. The attempt to carry out those kinds of fairly advanced repairs by non pros is often what leads to guitars being taken to a pro to undo a bad repair. I would try other kinds of grafts as well if it were me doing the work, but I always try to see if gluing the crack shut will accomplish the job before considering a graft.

It would also help to see the actual headstock you are talking about, diagnosing a problem from a stock picture is difficult because every crack is different and comes with a different set of surrounding conditions which determine how to go about a repair.

Can you photograph the guitar?



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 7 2013 14:37:50)

I'll take a pic when I'll remove the tuners. It's basically a split caused by a poor installation of replacement tuners.
It will take some time though.

What would be a good method to fill the old screw holes in case the holes in the new tuners will be matching?



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 11 2013 14:14:07)

any idea where to buy hide glue in spain and what is it called here



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 11 2013 15:21:40)

Its called cola caliente (de carpintero), but it can be whatever, so dont use that. I buy mine online in Germany. In general, you cant buy many things here. the quality is low.

Find your local instrument maker and ask for a bit. You wont need more than a few grams.
But you must be able to mix it correcly and heat it to the correct temperature



Leñador -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 11 2013 15:25:48)

Here you go tele, doesn't say where, but does say how.




tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 11 2013 17:00:41)

Cheers.
here is a pic of the headstock. Any tips on what to do if the old screw holes will fit the new tuners? I will receive them after couple weeks.



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Alain Moisan -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 11 2013 17:17:52)

Hi all,

Since the original picture was taken from an article I wrote, I feel I have to jump in... ;)

(By the way, no wrong doing here whatsoever Tele...)

In the case that is shown, the crack was not only old, but filled with wood putty (some bad repair attempt). So I had no choice but to do this (see picture), which is pretty similar to what Anders explained.



That said, if the cracks would have been fresh, I would probably tried to slide in titebond (not let it wick in, but rather push it in using a thin spatula, or some thick paper), close the crack with clamps and call it a day. Hide glue would have been just fine, but I'm just not a hide glue kind of guy...

My 2 cents...

P.S.: The tuner holes were filled because they were too big and misplaced, not because of the crack.

Alain Moisan
Les Guitares Moisan
www.guitaresmoisan.com

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 12 2013 7:37:08)

May i guess that you routed out the splint?
My description is from the days before routers.
It looks like a good repair, and your comment about dirt in the crack are spot on.

The reason for using hot hide glue is that if you heaten the headstock a bit and use a relatively thin mix of HHG, then it penetrates way better than titebond.



Alain Moisan -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 12 2013 11:32:16)

Thanks Anders! Yes I have routed out the splint.

Indeed hot hide glue would work very well I believe, like I mentioned.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 12 2013 16:58:10)

I wonder, when drilling the new holes for screws, is it necessary to have exact precision to avoid installing the tuners so that the rollers are rubbing on the wood of the roller holes? Or doesnt it matter? Im just supposing that the rollers should be in the exact center of the holes to avoid possible creaking or friction from the rollers rubbing on the wood. Thanks



Alain Moisan -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 12 2013 17:27:57)

It's not the screws that take the load of the string tension, but rather the post that rest on the wood of the headstock. The screws are there just to hold the tuners in place.

I put a little parafin inside the tuner holes to insure the tuners will turn smoothly.



estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 12 2013 23:00:46)

Tele,

Your photo of your headstock is not visible. Can you check that post? I'm interested in see exactly what the issue is before I say anything more.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 13 2013 13:37:50)

ok i attached the pic



estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 13 2013 20:20:07)

Hmm,
Yeah I would not bother with the graft at this point.

I would try to use hide glue and get it all the way though the crack from one side of crack to the other. If the crack goes all the way though that section of the headstock and you can work hot hide glue in from one side and have it ooze out the other side and then clamp it over night you'll likely fix it for good.

Here's the trouble, those screws penetrated the headstock and they look too long. Obviously they are poking out of the wood on the inside. Not good because they can catch on and fray strings, but even worse keep cracking the headstock.

Carefully plug the existing screw holes with round toothpick sections or make some little splinters and glue then in. Again hide glue is better because it will expand the plug more in the hole due to the wood swelling. A crack like this can close up tight and not open again if you predrill the screw holes and make sure they are the correct length, Don't use screws that go more than 3/4ths of the way into the headstock. And don't force the screws in.

I'd also stay away from white glue because if you close this crack with hide glue and it stays closed you're good to go. But if later on it opens you'll be able to either reglue it or go to the next stage and graft over the crack. If you use white glue you'll glaze the wood on the inside of the crack and not be able to effectively reglue it. There is a way to flush white glue from cracks, but it is a pain in the butt and using hide glue prevents you from ever having to do that task.

A well glued crack is often stronger than the wood that surrounds it; the logic behind using hide glue is that in the event of a failure you get a second, third chance or more to glue a tough seam or crack. With white glue you get basically one chance and the surfaces are glazed shut and will not reglue at full strength.

You may opt to do the graft first, but if it were me I would go the route of least resistance first and see what happens. You could save yourself a lot of expense and worry by just doing a craftsman like job with hide glue. If you mess it up or it fails you can get help or do it again yourself.

Hide glue is probably the most indispensable substance in a good repair shop. There are a dozen reasons why and hundreds of years of proof.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 16:56:28)

Thanks, is is necessary to also heat the headstock a bit?

About the roller holes, shouldnt the beginning of the roller be fitted into the hole so that it doesnt touch the surrounding wood but the end of the roller can do that? heres a pic:

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estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 17:23:49)

quote:

Thanks, is is necessary to also heat the headstock a bit?


Only to the extent that you warm it gently and carefully and watch it like a hawk. I don't go overboard with the heating of the parts to be glued, some 5 minutes maybe 20" from a 75 to 100 watt light bulb is plenty. Just a regular desk lamp at normal reading/writing height off the table is enough. There are times when you use heat from a bulb at closer range, but I think you just need to get this slightly warmer than room temp and use fairly runny glue. You can test the gel time and strength of the glue ahead of time by gluing two little blocks together. You might consider practicing with the glue before you try your head stock.

Also set your clamping up ahead of time and do a dry run with your clamps to make sure they are set and ready to go. Find some proper sized blocks of wood to protect the headstock from the clamps.

The trick is how to open the crack a tiny bit wider without distorting or tearing it open further. If it were in my shop I might take an old viola peg and insert it into the tuner holes and open the crack a wee bit. Then lead runny glue into the crack. Much of the time it's about improvising a method for each situation. You just have to use common sense and finesse. Or perhaps there is no need to open the crack more, you just have to observe the condition of the crack.

Regards the rollers, just make check to see they don't bind and turn freely. If they bind then reason out why.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 17:38:00)

Cheers. I think it will go fine. Just pisses me off how people do about messing up a headstock by lame job on tuner replacement.
About drilling screw holes, would metal dremel drill bit be sufficient for spanish cedar as Im not sure if I will find the correct sized wood drill bit.



estebanana -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 18:26:13)

Fiskars makes this wonderful little hand held crank drill that is super accurate and cheap. It has a plastic body and looks like a toy, but I use it to drill tuner plate holes. I think Anders has one too. It is the best tool because you can control it perfectly.

You should try to find a drill bit, wherever you find that little Fiskars drill they should have a tiny bit. Or buy one online. Don't risk cracking the headstock after all your work.

http://www.google.com/shopping/product/5196867679129656621?client=safari&rls=en&q=fiskars++drill&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=NiRCUZCbH6eiyAHq0YGAAw&ved=0CMMBELok

Good luck.



Alain Moisan -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 20:29:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Thanks, is is necessary to also heat the headstock a bit?

About the roller holes, shouldnt the beginning of the roller be fitted into the hole so that it doesnt touch the surrounding wood but the end of the roller can do that? heres a pic:


Maybe it's just me but it's the first time I hear about drilling an 11 mm hole for the begining of the roller. I've always used 10 mm (actually 13/32").

Anybody else doing as in the picture?

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jshelton5040 -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 14 2013 22:07:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan

Maybe it's just me but it's the first time I hear about drilling an 11 mm hole for the begining of the roller. I've always used 10 mm (actually 13/32").

Anybody else doing as in the picture?

I"ve never heard of it. I wouldn't do it anyway since we use an appliance with drill guides to insure accuracy and I'm certainly not going to the trouble to make another one with different size guides.



tele -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 16 2013 17:00:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

Here you go tele, doesn't say where, but does say how.




Any tips on how to make a DIY double boiler and maintain the temperature at 130-140f?



El Burdo -> RE: Headstock cracks from tuner screws, repair? (Mar. 16 2013 19:11:01)

quote:

Here you go tele, doesn't say where, but does say how.


Would it work if the glue was heated in an ordinary domestic oven? How long does it have to heat up for?

Ta.



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