Barree, the monster (Full Version)

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XXX -> Barree, the monster (Oct. 18 2005 20:16:10)

2 things:

- are there barree excersizes one should know, or which you would recommend? coz thats the my weakest point atm. i know the "simple" excersize to just hold the strings down with the index or additionally with some other finger and then play...

when i do the Fmajor7 on first fret the d string sometimes comes muted or buzzing[8|]... its rather confusing coz on 2nd fret i can do the same without much effort...



- what dou you think of short and long barree? for example:

D 5 5po3
A 3
E5

do you stretch the index until the E or A string?



duende -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 18 2005 20:25:50)

quote:

when i do the Fmajor7 on first fret the d string sometimes comes muted or buzzing


You must talk about F7, right. You don´t play a Fmajor7 chord at the first fret with a barré
But F7 (dominat) you do. Well it´s a large grip so sometimes you nead to wrk on it to gett some muscles. Also think about useing your arm and not only your fingers. Also it´s not all 6 strings that nead pressing down cause some fingers play notes that are not IN the barré with the index finger.

Henrik



XXX -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 18 2005 21:01:13)

oh yes, its F7. i kind of mixed up german and english[&:]
quote:

ORIGINAL: duende
Also it´s not all 6 strings that nead pressing down cause some fingers play notes that are not IN the barré with the index finger.
Henrik


ok, so you would say that one may also play "short" barres. i was asking because in the flamenco guitar book the example i mentioned above should be played with barre on 6 strings.



sorin popovici -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 19 2005 0:53:48)

actually F with a major seventh can be hold in the 1st position(i use it )

1
1
2
2
3
1



duende -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 19 2005 5:10:43)

quote:

actually F with a major seventh can be hold in the 1st position(i use it )


Yes i forgott that. But as a jazzer it´s not comon.
It more colon to hold. No A string

0
1
2
2
*
1



duende -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 19 2005 5:12:39)

quote:

ok, so you would say that one may also play "short" barres. i was asking because in the flamenco guitar book the example i mentioned above should be played with barre on 6 strings.


No what i meant was. First finger only press down on string 6,2 and 1 the others are held by
the other fingers. Do you have the book "pumping nylon"? it explains this very good.

hasta



XXX -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 19 2005 9:12:21)

my point on short barre was related to the example i had given above, here again:
D 5 5po3
A 3
E5
there is a pulloff on the index finger on d string.

the point with the F7 chord (112131) was a different topic about muscles.
but i know the gist of what you mean, duende.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 20 2005 8:30:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus
- are there barree excersizes one should know, or which you would recommend? coz thats the my weakest point atm. i know the "simple" excersize to just hold the strings down with the index or additionally with some other finger


That latter one is bad idea as you get dependant on using an additional finger to support the barre, and sometimes you need all your other fingers. Also, using a supporting finger can affect the way the other fingers address the fingerboard ie at awkward angles.

For great tips on barre, see Pumping Nylon. Basically the more you can use the weight of your arms, the better. If you see the barre as simply about squeezing between your forefinger and thumb, you will always find it problematic. Henriks point about not (usually) needing to press down all the strings with the barring finger is important too.



Jim Opfer -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 22 2005 12:29:22)

quote:

Pumping Nylon


Jon, does this book give examples with TAB, or is it notation?

Cheers
Jim.



duende -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 23 2005 10:17:09)

it´s notation.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 23 2005 18:54:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

quote:

Pumping Nylon


Jon, does this book give examples with TAB, or is it notation?



Hi Jim there's a tab version in print as well as the standard notation.

Cheers

Jon



Ryan002 -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 8:06:26)

If you started with classical like me you will probably have stamina issues...as in you can hold a barre chord but just not for long enough, or not continuously.

What I did to learn Barre chords was basically to hold the chord, then lift the entire guitar by the neck, still holding the chord. You don't have to lift it over your head or like some prize catch, you can still be seated and just suspend it slightly above your lap / floor *without* the help of your other hand. If you have a lot of time and patience, practise lifting heavy stacks of books by gripping with just the thumb and index finger. When the muscles controlling these fingers tear, you will feel them become very weak but when they knit back they will be thicker and stronger each time. Just like doing weights I guess.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 9:00:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
If you have a lot of time and patience, practise lifting heavy stacks of books by gripping with just the thumb and index finger. When the muscles controlling these fingers tear,


Wow, I have to say that's not to be recommended! This is not good advice at all - exactly the opposite of what he should be doing. This a a recipe for bulding up lots of tension, and causing injury. Tearing muscles?? Ouch!!

Brute force/muscle bulding is not the way to a get good barres, its all about good technique, and technique is subtle. My favourite way of demonstrating the futility of the above approach is by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.

Sorry to be hard on you Ryan, but its to easy to get injured with poor practice.

BTW - classical guitar = no stamina for barres? You have to be kidding, man.

Jon



Doitsujin -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 9:12:10)

hmm yes.. training for the fingers is only good if you do it with technic-training on the guitar. I would never do strechig-training (for ex.) with my fingers,too..
I never trained especially to get a good barre... When I started to play for dance, I acompan. the better players. And we often played rumbas for warming up. So when you played 15min only barree chords without a timeout, you get big muscles for barree. It was often like a bodybuilder workout for hands.[:D]



XXX -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 10:48:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.


hm i also thought about that as an excersize but is that possible? i mean i tried to play solo without the thumb and ive managed to play simple ones but a barre?



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 11:18:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
by holding down a barre chord without the thumb touching the back of the neck.


hm i also thought about that as an excersize but is that possible?


Yes, for straight forward barres, eg like your standard Emajor shape (giving a G here)

3
3
4
5
5
3

Try this - with your right arm weight securing the guitar, you can use a combination of left arm weight and a gentle pull back of your left arm to hold those 3 strings down no problem. Combine that kind of stuff with ensuring that the barre is on the bony edge of the finger (as opposed to the fleshy inside) and you're away.

Granted that things get tricky with barres plus long stretches, or holding a barre with the rest of the fingers moving through a picado scale (Paco is fond of doing that) but for the most part good technique can minimise the amount of 'squeeze' you need between forefinger and thumb.
Golden rule - the less tension you carry in your left hand, the better.

I really must get my video **** together.



Skai -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 24 2005 14:37:07)

Classical w/o stamina?! Try Cavatina for some nice 'barring torture' [:D]



Ryan002 -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 25 2005 14:53:51)

Don't get me wrong. Past a certain point guitarists of *any* genre will be able to barre chords for equally long periods of time. In my experience though, guitarists who play Jazz, Rock or Blues tend to get used to barre chords much sooner than classical guitarists. This is probably due to the fact that classical syallbus' generally begins with precision based, note - for - note exercises whereas it's contemporary counterparts launch from open chords directly into barre chords.

That aside, it is my humble opinion that if it dosen't hurt, it's not efficient practise. [8|]



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 25 2005 15:28:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
That aside, it is my humble opinion that if it dosen't hurt, it's not efficient practise. [8|]


I couldn't disagree more strongly with that, I'm afraid. The no pain-no gain philosophy has no place in learning a musical instrument and is a recipe for RSI.

"If it hurts, you are doing something wrong." Plain and simple.



Escribano -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 25 2005 16:26:25)

I'm with Jon and I studied anatomy & physiology for 3 years - when it hurts, stop. Use exercises to warm up; build flexibility and muscle with correct exercise, not poor technique.

Poor posture is also a big one - we guitarists and computer users can suffer from serious RSI in the wrist and lower back disorders (L5-S1 joint). Laptop commuters regularly damage nerves in the cervical spine.



XXX -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 25 2005 16:45:13)

Good post Escribano, but Ryan, is it not logic and reasonable enough to stop when it hurts ? (are you sm?[:D] joke :))



Ryan002 -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 26 2005 6:43:58)

Heh. Maybe if my organ teacher had met you guys she wouldn't have cracked me over the knuckles with that ruler so many times [:D]

Now I'd just like to point out that while I hold my barre chords just fine now, I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome. So I may be wrong.

But that's how I did it. *shrug*



duende -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 26 2005 6:56:35)

quote:

I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome.


Didn´t you say pain was good? I sufferd for 3 years of that syndrom.
I made some exsercises and now it´s gone more or less. I never feel it while playing flamenco but i can´t play electric (with a pick) for more than 30min then i start to feel it again.

Good for me huh? Flamenco guitar was the perfect cure for my hand.
Doing rasgueados actualy developed my muscels in a good way so my hand stay happy.

For me there wasn´t ANY pain what so ever. So we should take breaks and not always go on how the body reacts. I played Jazz for 3-4 hrs then was trying to learn rasgueados for 3-4 hrs
Then i was doing rasgueados on the chair the table the side of books.
So the muscles NEVER had any rest. And i never felt ANY pain and BAAAM there it was.

so dear friends. Take breaks, pain or not.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 26 2005 7:59:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
Now I'd just like to point out that while I hold my barre chords just fine now, I do in fact suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome.


And on that note, the case for the prosecution rests.



Ryan002 -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 26 2005 15:20:11)

Well it is *a* way isn't it [8D]



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 26 2005 23:05:45)

quote:

And on that note, the case for the prosecution rests.


Jon;

Does self incrimination apply here? [:)]

My uncle would say, “Don’t do what I do! Do what I say”! Some people cannot learn or teach from self-experience but give advice regardless. At least we know the end result of following Ryan’s instructions.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 27 2005 1:51:30)

ay ay ay....
I can tell you that I have obsessively overpracticed technique and my fingers got a lot of pains and minor injuries because of it. Slow and steady wins this race....



Skai -> RE: Barree, the monster (Oct. 27 2005 11:54:00)

Well I highly disagree playing through pain. Sure, playing even though you're starting to get abit tired is fine. But definitely not pain. It's always better to progress abit slower instead of damaging your hands. In the end, it'll slow you down even more.



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