Rondena; recommendations? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 2 2013 15:29:42)

Although I started playing flamenco about sixty years ago, I never ever learned to play a Rondena; yet I love the lyrical qualities and harmonies of this form.

(I read somewhere that it was developed by Ramon de Montoya - is this true?).

I'm looking for recommendations to learn a nice Rondena with the D/F# tuning that's not too technically demanding. Preferably one that has a TAB/CD available. Any thoughts welcome.

Happy New Year everybody. . .



Blondie#2 -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 2 2013 15:56:52)

Struggling to meet your 'not too demanding' as obviously these things are relative, but Moraito's Alameda Vieja from Morao Y Oro leaps to mind as a modern (and lovely) example and I'd go for the eponymous first track from Paco Pena's Fabulous Flamenco if you prefer old school, which will almost certainly be mostly Montoya's work anyhow.

Former is certainly available via Alain Faucher (get the Morao Y Oro book!), not sure about Paco's

Edit- You can get Paco Pena's Rondena from Faucher too, I just checked his website.



eg.czerny -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 2 2013 19:50:12)

I agree with Blondie#2
Paco Pena's Rondena from the Fabulous Flamenco album (CD) is a favourite of mine. Most is not too difficult. It was the first in a long string of transcription purchases from Alain Faucher.
I am currently working on Duende Flamenco by Sabicas from the Rey Del Flamenco album. Another classic.
Many many happy hours of entertainment. There is something about this tuning that I really like.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 2 2013 20:49:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy


(I read somewhere that it was developed by Ramon de Montoya - is this true?).



I think i even used the word invented but actually that's to much honor (it's believed to have a Ronda/Malaga/fandangos origin).....but he most certainly gave it a boost. When my father studied Ramon Montoya's Rondeña for the first time at first he thought it was a very strange piece.... but after a while he concluded it was a fabulous idea that would inspire future flamenco players for a very long time.... indeed players like Paco Peña, Paco de Lucia, Tomatito and Vicente all honored Ramon Montoya by playing parts of his rondeña.



FlamencoD -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 1:08:28)

He doesn't get much respect around here but I really like Juan Martin's Rondena from his advanced book. There are a lot of different parts to it that are very harmonious and beautiful, IMO. I can't find the actual full piece on Youtube, though, to give as an example.



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 20:19:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy


(I read somewhere that it was developed by Ramon de Montoya - is this true?).



I think i even used the word invented but actually that's to much honor (it's believed to have a Ronda/Malaga/fandangos origin).....but he most certainly gave it a boost. When my father studied Ramon Montoya's Rondeña for the first time at first he thought it was a very strange piece.... but after a while he concluded it was a fabulous idea that would inspire future flamenco players for a very long time.... indeed players like Paco Peña, Paco de Lucia, Tomatito and Vicente all honored Ramon Montoya by playing parts of his rondeña.


THe cante called "Rondeña" does infact come from Malagueña/verdiales family related to fandango form and Ronda area of spain is home to those songs....BUT the piece in question is absolutely disconnected from that song form and infact as far as we know is 100% for sure the unique creation of Ramon Montoya. THere is a hearsay claim from Pepe Matrona that Miguel Borrul Sr also played Rondeña as a guitar solo....but sorry it's hard to buy that info from a singer about a form that could easily be confused by it's same named cante counter part. Further, even TODAY aficionados confuse (as per mislabled recordings and videos) This solo guitar form with other libre forms such as MINERA and Taranta. Its understandable if you are NOT a guitarist....however I am going with the evidence which suggests the form was created BY RAMON MONTOYA.


Ricardo



Leñador -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 20:25:12)

So Ramon just created that palo, he created Farruca too if I remember correctly. Anyone know the newest palo to be created? Columbianas?



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 21:14:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

So Ramon just created that palo, he created Farruca too if I remember correctly. Anyone know the newest palo to be created? Columbianas?



I believe Colombianas and Caracoles are more like "songs" than forms as we think of things like Solea siguiriya fandango buleria etc. Colombianas has the compas of tango or rumba, but the "aire" of guajira and other ida y vuelta song forms but it's really just a special song I thought. THat is my opinion , I guess you can decide that based on how many usable letras there are and I don't really know. So with that in mind PDL and Camaron created the "canastera" again it's like a song that combines Rondeña toque with fandango beat and a unique melody....but it never really took off to it's own "palo" per say. It did inspire (IMO) a lot of modern artists to combine elements of different forms...levante guitar keys with other cantes such as solea or buleria, and further to use unique tunings (Caño Roto guys especially) that expand the dimension of ANY palo taking on almost their own unique form in the end. Then you have canciones themselves that simply became so popular they are practically traditional "forms" all their own. Most composer of "cante" (if you can call them that), these days work mainly with buleria and tangos and rumba...works better in commercial terms as well.



Leñador -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 21:32:57)

Could not have asked for a better reply, thanks Ricardo.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 3 2013 23:51:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


The cante called "Rondeña" does infact come from Malagueña/verdiales family related to fandango form and Ronda area of spain is home to those songs....BUT the piece in question is absolutely disconnected from that song form and infact as far as we know is 100% for sure the unique creation of Ramon Montoya.

Ricardo


That's why i choose the careful "it's believed to" ...

Wikipedia claims it came from a form called "fandangos Malagueños, the oldest known form of fandangos"....i don't know enough about all the historical fandangos variations to judge that so i just mentioned the malaga/ronda/fandango link (Malagueña to me is part of what i learned to see as part of the fandangos group)

As far as a relation with cante is concerned...one of the more rhythmical falsetas of Ramon's Rondeña does in fact quote a well known song (indeed malagueña if i'm not mistaken). My father believes there probably was a player preceding Ramon Montoya in Rondeña, but still embraces the legend of him being the spiritual father. Ramon Montoya did indeed love experimenting with new keys...the Mineras you mentioned most probably is a typical Ramon Montoya project as well...

You're right that records frequently mislable songs....the precent day explorations (including lots of open tunings) makes things even more clouded.....a similar historical problem is that similar names can be used for completely different kinds of music in various moment of history as well.....a seguiriyas mentioned in 1700 does refer to a totally different kind of music then a modern day seguiriyas....isn't it fun.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 4 2013 0:14:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

So Ramon just created that palo, he created Farruca too if I remember correctly. Anyone know the newest palo to be created? Columbianas?



I believe Colombianas and Caracoles are more like "songs" than forms as we think of things like Solea siguiriya fandango buleria etc.


still Paco's Colombianas already sounds much more adventurous than the average copla....who nows what time will bring :-)




mark indigo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 6 2013 17:46:12)

you were saying in a post not too long ago that you were working out some Sabicas falsetas, so I thought if you want to learn Rondeña and you want tab then Dennis Koster's 3rd "keys to flamenco" book/cd called "concert flamenco" (or something like that) would probably suit. It has Rondeña, I think it's Mario Escudero's version of Ramon Montoya's original (Escudero had lessons from Montoya).



mark indigo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 6 2013 17:54:20)

quote:

I believe Colombianas and Caracoles are more like "songs" than forms as we think of things like Solea siguiriya fandango buleria etc. Colombianas has the compas of tango or rumba, but the "aire" of guajira and other ida y vuelta song forms but it's really just a special song I thought


i could look it up to check, but if i remember right colombiana was developed from a song (as you say) into a palo by Pepe Marchena in the 1920's. I think the source song was a folk song either catalunyan or basque. I think the name came from something in the letra, not because it was actually from Colombia.



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 6 2013 19:29:34)

quote:

I think the name came from something in the letra, not because it was actually from Colombia.


I think colombianas were always hot.



NormanKliman -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 7 2013 13:35:53)

Here's Ramón's version:



quote:

As far as a relation with cante is concerned...one of the more rhythmical falsetas of Ramon's Rondeña does in fact quote a well known song (indeed malagueña if i'm not mistaken).


In the video above, the part at 3:20 sounds like the levantica, as heard here starting around 1:50:

http://www.ivoox.com/levantica-taranta-canta-encarnacion-fernandez-audios-mp3_rf_991174_1.html



el carbonero -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 7 2013 14:32:35)

ramon montoya had create the development and dissonances of the tone of taranta too.



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 7 2013 18:34:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

Here's Ramón's version:



quote:

As far as a relation with cante is concerned...one of the more rhythmical falsetas of Ramon's Rondeña does in fact quote a well known song (indeed malagueña if i'm not mistaken).


In the video above, the part at 3:20 sounds like the levantica, as heard here starting around 1:50:

http://www.ivoox.com/levantica-taranta-canta-encarnacion-fernandez-audios-mp3_rf_991174_1.html


Interesting thought, there is a similar contour but I disagree. Indeed the top note C# then the target note F# are the similar idea. AFter that dramatic picado scale down (the singer would just jump) the voice and levante style clearly hits that flat 7 which would translate to a G natural in Rondeña (implying A7)....and Montoya doesn't do that at all in this phrase. He keeps it lydian sounding all the way through over the D bass. Of course the walking bass E->A is imitating the typical answer the guitar does for cante in all the Levante cante styles. But I have heard much more deliberate quoting of cante melodies in other falsetas compared to this super famous section. For sure though he is being deliberately "lyrical" with this falseta.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 7 2013 19:53:32)

quote:

AFter that dramatic picado scale down...


Yes, it just sounds like it for a moment.

I've uploaded to my site a couple of files (won't work in audio forum) of levantica of Sabicas with a violinist in 1931 and the singer Chaconcito in 1928 with Ramón Montoya.

http://www.canteytoque.es/levantica.htm



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 8 2013 13:05:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

AFter that dramatic picado scale down...


Yes, it just sounds like it for a moment.

I've uploaded to my site a couple of files (won't work in audio forum) of levantica of Sabicas with a violinist in 1931 and the singer Chaconcito in 1928 with Ramón Montoya.

http://www.canteytoque.es/levantica.htm



Ok, suddenly (it seems but perhaps it's been a while) ipad and iphone refuse to play ANY mp3 on your site![&:] Anybody got any ideas whats up with that?



n85ae -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 8 2013 13:23:03)

Hi Britguy,

Back to the original topic of your post. You might try Pepe Habichuela
Canta La Guitarra, send me your email address I might have a copy in pdf.

Regards,
Jeff



NormanKliman -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 8 2013 16:29:22)

quote:

...ipad and iphone refuse to play ANY mp3 on your site!


Maybe because I changed a setting to prevent hotlinking and indexing, but MP3s seem to play/download as before. I've noticed, however, that access is only possible from links that are within my site. It won't work, for example, if you aim a browswer at www.canteytoque.es/example.mp3.

Feedback will be appreciated. (Sorry to derail the thread britguy.)



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 8 2013 16:48:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

...ipad and iphone refuse to play ANY mp3 on your site!


Maybe because I changed a setting to prevent hotlinking and indexing, but MP3s seem to play/download as before. I've noticed, however, that access is only possible from links that are within my site. It won't work, for example, if you aim a browswer at www.canteytoque.es/example.mp3.

Feedback will be appreciated. (Sorry to derail the thread britguy.)

I put it here only to see if anybody else had the problem cuz I know I was just using ipad to show some of your stuff to a friend over holidays. Problem was your links open in the same window (or used to) so I would select to open audio in separate window so we could see the letra at the same time listening. I will email you about this from now on.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 8 2013 16:56:40)

Okay. A setting on your device might solve the problem. I know what you mean about seeing the letra while listening. I had that problem on an earlier version of my browser and it really got in the way. Please keep me informed.



britguy -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 9 2013 0:32:10)

quote:

Feedback will be appreciated. (Sorry to derail the thread britguy.)


Don't be too concerned, Norman.

This is what the Foro is all about.

And we're all learning. . .



jlneng -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 13 2013 22:28:16)

Hello,
I have a recommendation for you, pick up Faucher's Tomatito transcription of Montoya. It is a beautiful arrangement which includes Tomatito's original stuff combined with enough of Ramon Montoya's original music to give it a traditional rondena homage. The transcription is in a book offered by affedis. I especially like the solea in the book. Tomatito has a modern take on flamenco with an excellent gypsy air, in my opinion anyway. His technical skills are brilliant to say the least, but as with anything, very playable with practice.
John



britguy -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 13 2013 22:53:33)

quote:

The transcription is in a book offered by affedis


Thank you for your recommendation.

What is the title of the book, publisher, etc. etc. and if the price is right, maybe I'll buy it. . .

Two questions: Does the notation include TAB, and is there any audio available ?



Ricardo -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 14 2013 17:57:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

The transcription is in a book offered by affedis


Thank you for your recommendation.

What is the title of the book, publisher, etc. etc. and if the price is right, maybe I'll buy it. . .

Two questions: Does the notation include TAB, and is there any audio available ?



it does have tab, it's called "Tomatito" song called "montoya" on the album "Guitarra Gitana"...and you probably easy find a video of it as it's the only version of Rondenã Tomatito plays.



eg.czerny -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 14 2013 20:35:44)

britguy
Lots of good recommendations.
Perhaps a final thought on this subject (from me anyway)
1. Whose Rondena do you really like and are there tabs available for it?
or
2. What tabs are out there and which ones do you like the most.
And very important in my opinion anyway...
3. No one says you have to play at the same tempo as the recording if it is too fast for you. Rondena also sounds great at a slower tempo.
If a section is too difficult, leave it out or change it and make it your own. Just keep the emotion, the flavor, the feeling that makes it a Rondena. Same as you (and all of us) do for any other palos. Mix and match from various sources.
That's' one of the great parts about flamenco. It allows (me) to be musically creative and not confined to learning a "song" note for note.
Enjoy your Rondena.



britguy -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 16 2013 14:00:50)

quote:

. Whose Rondena do you really like and are there tabs available for it?
or
.

Good suggestions.

I think the version I really like is the one I remember from many years ago, which I'm pretty sure is the original Montoya Rondena; as played on the video Norman posted.

If there's a TAB available for that I'd like to get a copy. . .



Elie -> RE: Rondena; recommendations? (Jan. 16 2013 14:09:44)

Sierra del agua , vicente amigo ?



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