Paco in Edinburgh

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Ron.M -> Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 14:01:23)
Hi Folks, Well, I just got back from Edinburgh. It was really great to see Paco finally doing his stuff after all these years of waiting! He got a great turn-out and the Usher Hall must have pretty much sold-out. Unfortunately,from where I was sitting (near the front) the sound system was very bassy and boomy, (like the same sound you get on an old amp when you turn the bass control full up and the treble control practically all the way down), so a lot of the detail was very muddy. Rob (El Oud) was sitting further back and said that the sound was OK for him. He said some other folk he knew who were sitting at the front said the same, so I guess it was because we were just hearing the sound from the side of the PA stacks at either side of the stage. Not that it mattered much, for the stuff was way too abstract for me! Paco played without a capo, either in open tunings or with a weird resolving chord somewhere up the middle of the neck, so there was never a danger of a traditional sounding chord creeping in anywhere, God forbid. Although it was fun to watch, I personally found the music pretty tedious and bland. Even the addition of Hamonica, Electric Bass and Cajón/Congas didn't lift it that much for me. The rhythms and chords seemed to keep well away from anything that could be mistaken for Traditional Flamenco, although the two cantaoras sang well and did their best to fit in to the general style. Definitely came across as Jazz/World/Contemporary/Alternative stuff to me. I had been looking forward to hearing Niño Josele, but for practically the whole concert he just stroked a few chords with his thumb, except for about a minute where he did a little picado "duel" with Paco. I couldn't quite get the point of using a player of Josele's calibre for such a minor role? Everyone remained seated on stage and there was no speaking to, or rapport with the audience. To be honest it seemed like everybody was shattered after a late night the previous night and were just going through the motions. Still, the show seemed to go down well with the audience, although I'm not 100% sure if they were cheering for the performance or "the legend" myself. The only time things picked up was on their last number, where the percussionist and bass player were allowed to solo for a bit and Paco ripped off some incredibly long, and ultra-fast picados. Very funky, but for that kind of stuff, frankly I'd rather hear Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce and Clapton myself. I think they do it better. Oh..and the Harmonica player also got to solo a bit. Of course there was the obligatory 3 minute standing ovation after which the performers returned with one of the cantaoras carrying Paco's little daughter and sat her on her knee and the little girl did a bit of palmas and cante during an improvised Tangos/Rumba run up to the final "Entre Dos Aguas". She then ran up at the end and hugged her Pa's leg as they took the final applause. Quite moving actually and I'm not being sarcastic here. I really did have a bit of a tear in my eye. Well,it cost me about $200 in all, 250 miles travel and two half days off work. Was it worth it? Of course it was! I owed it to myself and to "The Man". cheers Ron Oh...and Paco doesn't use the "Paco leg position" for playing anymore...he uses a footstool. I guess the old arthritis hits us all eventually.

Jon Boyes -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 14:36:40)
Ta for the review Ron. Interesting about the leg position, particularly as a footstool is just as likely to cause problems (as many classical players with bad backs will testify).

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 14:40:48)
Jon, He uses it to prop up his right leg, with the guitar waist on his lower thigh (as I do due to a hip problem). Don't classical players prop up the left leg? cheers Ron

Jon Boyes -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 16:15:25)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M Jon, He uses it to prop up his right leg, with the guitar waist on his lower thigh (as I do due to a hip problem). Don't classical players prop up the left leg? Thats the trad way yes, although there is a lot more variety these days, including the way you describe, as well as not using a foot stool at all (various supports are available). Propping up either leg is a potential problem for the back though, especially if combined with leaning forward. An ideal position is to have the back straight with both feet flat on the floor... so the trad flamenco position is the 'safest'... except that doesn't allow the fretboard freedom the Paco ..errr 'old Paco position' does. Bugger, eh? [:D]

Mark2 -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 16:29:29)
Too bad you got bad sound Ron. It might have been more enjoyable otherwise. I might have seen the same show-it was maybe a year and a half ago it seems. But i did enjoy the music, his bulerias were very dense.

Escribano -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 20:25:10)
I'm with you Ron, he messed with my head in Almería and only got into the "groove" once or twice. Messing around with palos and falsetas and going off into space with his Bulerias. He was toying with us and seemed a little tired, even for the first gig of the tour. He did talk to the home crowd a little but you should have seen the people looking to meet Tomatito (in the audience) afterwards. Complete waste of a bassist through muddy sound and irrelevant funk/jazz riffs. Harmonica was pretty good if not, by its nature, bluesy. No duende for me that night but an essential pilgrimage, nonetheless. I still wait to see Pepe Habechuela for the first time and would book to see Tomatito again, anytime.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 20:42:39)
You know Mark, I don't think it's got to do with sound reinforcement or anything like that. Now I've had time to let it seep in, here are my views... Paco is a Prima Donna. Not his fault, but from his very early 20's has lived all his life being told that he is the best Flamenco guitarist who has ever lived. He has lived that for almost the last forty years. That has now become his personal identity, the person whom he has to deal with each time he wakes up and looks himself in the mirror in the morning, like Sabicas before him, who would simply not let go of the torch. In fact I have an album of an older Sabicas, just called "Sabicas!!", where he is photographed on the LP cover in a white suit and his $10,000 diamond ring and an unusally bitter expression on his face, just when Paco was just starting to draw extensive public attention. I haven't played it for a long time, but I found the recording quite embarrasing for the man as he tries to take on this "young buck" by trying to play faster and slicker, which of course he is unable to. In fact, he only gets out of his depth and neither sounds like himself or Paco... just like an old man getting up to dance at his son's 21st Birthday Party, thinking "I'll show those whippersnappers how to dance!". He loses his dignity IMO. The truth, IMO is that , if Paco had one encore at the Usher Hall, then Gerardo would have had three. Problem is that Gerardo doesn't have the same credentials as a primary innovator. But he's younger, he's slicker, he's more precise, his music is more organized, his audience presense is much better, he's got a great sense of humour and has a better judgement of musicians he takes on the road with him. Paco's group was a shambles IMO. I felt the singers would have preferred to stand and relate to the audience, but were probably overruled by Paco, since it could possibly appear that they were the featured artist...so they agreed to just content themselves on the money they'd make from the tour. After all...who's the Daddy around here? When I sat in Dundee to see Gerardo, there were five chairs all the same colour and type laid out. One for the Cajón player, the Singer, Gerardo, his wife, the Dancer, and the Bassist. The man is an honest musician, respects his fellow artists and audience...and delivers! In Edinburgh, all the chairs were the same red colour...except for Paco's, which was a special white one and a different style. I don't want to go on too much on this theme, 'cos it's depressing... but I'd really respect Paco if he had to announce his retirement and take his riches he has accumulated and spend more time scuba diving and bringing up his wee girl and accept that everybody loves him for what he's done and the genius he brought to the Flamenco guitar, and to do a final tour playing his "Golden Oldies" that everybody loves him for and stop trying to keep up with the younger and very talented guitarists who are quickly superceding him in technique and performance, rather than waiting until the pendulum swings the other way and is overtaken by a newer and more dynamic player, but still won't let go of that crown. Paco...everybody loves and respects you....you have nothing more to prove!! cheers Ron PS... On a lighter note.. The BBC here had been doing a lot of stuff about Bob Dylan for about two weeks before the Paco concert, inlcuding the Martin Scorcese four hour documentary. For a moment, in the Usher Hall, the devilment in me made me think, after one of his more boring jazzy pieces... "What if I had to stand up right now and shout 'Judas'!..."[:D][:D]..

Escribano -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 6 2005 23:00:55)
quote: "What if I had to stand up right now and shout 'Judas'!..." I doubt Paco would respond with passion... "I don't believe you!"

Florian -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 2:49:27)
I feel exactly like that everytime Paco Pena comes to town, only Paco Pena is not Paco, Paco Pena will bring this young talented guitarists and talented dancers and singhers and then force you to sitt trough 30 minutes of the longhest boring solo piece going nowhere that i heard on his 70's cd, and when i dont enjoy it , I think to my self should i feel gulty ? i mean who the ** am I ?? this is Paco Pena for **s sake,l everybody knows him , hes an important figure in flamenco guitar. But then I think that is thanks to pple like Paco Pena many young flamencos get they's chance, so i think everything is the way it should be, everyone has his pourpose. Personally I belive Paco still has alot of good music left in him, and this is coming from not the biggest Paco fan in the world. I think knowing more about flamenco then the average guy in the crowd was your curse !! it sounds like they were able to just enjoy it. Then again the crowd here went off theyr heads when Paco Pena finished a simple taranta. And its always the 60 year old yappys that go to all this shows and pretend that they are well cultured :-) "Let's make a night of it, after we can go to the Hilton for a sangria". What's on next week ? "The Kung Fu Monks, Oh Wonderfull "......[:D] very interesting thread.

Mark2 -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 17:27:27)
Kind of a bummer Ron, but I understand your point. I saw a concert with Clapton, Page, and Beck several years ago. Beck was by far the best player, but when Page played Stairway, the house went crazy. It was about history and legacy. And that is what Paco has over Gerardo and all the rest of the current crop. And that is no small thing. Maybe Paco should play more stuff from his early albums, but I can't say I feel the way you do. When I saw him, every local guitarist was there, and with the exception of one older Moron type, they were floored. Comparisons were made with the VA concert six months or so before, and it was no comparison to some. Of course I'd love to hear him play some older stuff from Fuente, and I'm not crazy about the "jazz" stuff, but it seems many of the top guys such as VA and Gerardo have followed him into that style. If Paco is a Judas, what does that make them?

Mark2 -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 17:35:36)
One last thought. Ron, if you had an opportunity to sit in a small room and watch Paco play with just two palmeros, or a singer, or alone-no mikes, no special chair, no lights, I bet you'd change your opinion. Just a guess.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 20:03:00)
quote: Maybe Paco should play more stuff from his early albums, Mark, I think that is it...that's what folk want to hear! Paco, of course, is a simply outstanding guitarist, but IMO he's not great at the "jazzy" stuff. He just melts into a kind of a technico-jam, with no real structure to it, finishing off with some Paco picado to justify it. He is not really good at that stuff IMO... Personally, I'm not into "jazzy" stuff either, but VA and Gerardo beat him hands down on composition and delivery in that kind of medium. You've got to remember to that Paco has been a teenage hero of VA, Gerardo and Tomatito, so obviously they have great respect and admiration for the man. So that's why Paco feels OK and welcome in their company. Personally, I don't think folk all over the world have put "Fantasia Flamenca", "Almoraima" etc into their dustbins when "Cositas Buenas" came out, thinking that it's just old, archival stuff now that Paco has moved on to greater things.... If anything it's probably been the biggest flop in his career.... (except for the next one) I would go further to say that Paco is not leading...but following what his younger desciples are up to. Therein lies the danger IMO. That's why I drew the Sabicas parallel. There is no way that any musician/performer is going to embrace every change in the medium throughout his/her entire lifetime and remain at the top. The thing that got me during the concert, was that after all this time, when I could be watching Paco play some of his all-time Classics right before my eyes.... Here he was, playing all of this waffle, with harmonicas and stuff, that frankly he's not very good at... And I'll probably never, ever get a chance to see him again. cheers Ron

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 20:12:32)
quote: One last thought. Ron, if you had an opportunity to sit in a small room and watch Paco play with just two palmeros, or a singer, or alone-no mikes, no special chair, no lights, I bet you'd change your opinion. Just a guess. Mark, I have never changed my opinion of Paco. I think he is the founding genius of modern Flamenco guitar. I love his "genuine" Paco stuff. Have you got "Rito and Geografia"? Listen to that Bulerias with his brother Pepe taped in a room of his family house on a RTE reporter's UHER tape machine and dynamic mic just placed on the table. Now this is what Paco was all about IMO. This sort of stuff is what changed things forever amongst all the teenage guitarists in Andalucia, like VA, Gerardo etc. IMO. cheers Ron

Escribano -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 20:29:27)
quote: He just melts into a kind of a technico-jam, with no real structure to it, finishing off with some Paco picado to justify it. See my review of Jeronimo Maya a while back? http://www.foroflamenco.com/m.asp?m=5094&mpage=1&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1&key= Isn't it a danger that this picado/jazz techo-fest becomes PdL's true legacy as he influences guys like Jeronimo to sound more Paco?

Florian -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 20:31:59)
Not dissagreeing with anyone here, but i try to look it at it from his point of view too. Paco has always given pple what they wanted the "classics" all his life i mean how many times havent you heard him play Entre dos aragos and Almoraima in concerts. the man has changed since he wrote this solos, has matured musically i mean lets be frank except for the fact that it has a ctachy melody Entre dos aragos is a pretty weak and straight composition this days and it dosent represent the person Paco has become. He has paid his due when is Paco alowed to be himself and explore a litlle more of what he wants to do ? When if not now that hes spent a lifetime just pleasing pple by playing Solos he was probably well over a long time ago. I hear a world of difference between Paco's Cosita Buenas, Vicentes and Gerardo Nunez, difference is not as obvious now because instead of flamenco beeing black and white like the old days more shades and colors are beeing used now so in general it can sound simillar, but make no mistake each of the guitarists has theyr own tones and colors they are good at using. think of it like this , if Paco wasent Paco and experimented the way hes always done and pushed the limits (even if you dont necesarely dig it) Vicente AMigo, and Gerardo would not sound the way they do. In a time race its alot easyer to win if you go after someones just been cause you know exactly what time you have to beat to win.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 20:47:32)
Florian, I'd have to disagree. Paco's peak of creativity was in the 70's. That's what led to the whole new outlook in Flamenco Guitar IMO. You mention "Entre Dos Aguas" and "Almoraima" as if they were "peaks" of some kind. These were just "throw-away" items that the general public thought was a catchy tune and earned him some money from record sales amongst the folk who didn't know flamenco from flamingo, but just liked dancing to it at discos when on holiday. Do you actually have any of the early Camaron/Paco albums, or Fantasia Flamenca? This is the core, or main body of Paco's work IMO. cheers Ron

Mark2 -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:02:38)
I think both Florian and Ron are right to a degree. I think Paco has the right to play whatever he wants, as everyone does, and people can show up or not. And I agree that Paco reached his peak with the 70's stuff and of course on all the Camaron stuff. But unfortunately for us, I doubt he's ever going to tour and play stuff from Fuente y Caudal, Fantasia, etc. Whether he led or followed his way into the "Cositas" era, he's there and I doubt he's going back.

Florian -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:06:10)
quote: Do you actually have any of the early Camaron/Paco albums, or Fantasia Flamenca? U serious ?I have everything paco's ever done including the soundtrack for the Movie " The Hit", and yes for those days it was creative and inovative but that was then , different days and times you speak as if Paco is done wich i think is far from true. Hes the same guy that came up with that stufff you loved so much so why not have faith in him again and know that he will once again come up with new stuff and now ideas you will absolutley love ? I was only turned to Paco after listening to him in Samarucco and i think Cosita Buenas is brilliant, i dont fully understand it but i need to listen to it for a few more years before i get it. All i am saying is dont have so many preconcived ideas of what it should be and just give what hes giving you a chance to sink in before dissmising it, have faith in the man after all hes Paco, he invented everything for crying out loud[:D] If i went to a Paco concert i would be more satisfied if Paco was honest to the Audience and played where hes at now and what hes feeling now (even if i dont get it) rather than if he just plays something he was feeling in the 70's just to please the crowd.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:17:35)
Hmm, maybe so Flo...but that's the last time I'll ever put myself out to go to one of his concerts. Not a great sign, if that's multiplied up, considering he's the greatest living flamenco guitarist? Glad I saw him anyway! cheers Ron

Florian -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:29:34)
well thats fair enough, cant argue with that and after spending $200 bucs i think u have everyright to speak your opinion, i just dont belive Paco is done yet, sure his technique is not as sharp as Gerardos or Jeronimos but technique is not what makes a good song and i think the most important part the sentiment, is still very much there.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:40:48)
quote: Isn't it a danger that this picado/jazz techo-fest becomes PdL's true legacy as he influences guys like Jeronimo to sound more Paco? Simon, Give me a concert with Capullo and Diego Amaya or Merce and Morao anyday... I went down to Edinburgh for a Flamenco "injection" to reinvigorate me, but sadly it was not so, despite being the famous Paco de Lucia. At least I'm hoping there is some little bar I may be able to visit sometime in Jerez, where I can listen to some simple cante and guitar while the bassist and harmonica player and drummer have gone downtown to play at some "house" session gig with the rap artists. [:D][:D] cheers Ron

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 7 2005 21:58:11)
quote: i think the most important part the sentiment, is still very much there. Sadly Flo...Not in Edinburgh it wasn't....just technique, and a general feeling of "any old crap I play is good enough for these guys...'cos I'm Paco de Lucia". There was no published program for the concert, listing the artists involved etc....His band simply tumbled on stage in their street clothes...looked really tired and bored, did their thing and got off... No mention of Niño Josele, a guitarist in his own right who just strummed some chords in the backgound, or the two Cantaoras who both have made a couple of Albums each, but just acted as girl "backing vocals", except for a few mumbled words from Paco at the end... I can actually see why they were bored, having nothing else to do but be Paco's backing. That's the only time he ever addressed the audience.. (which incidentally was filled with lots of Spanish people shouting and cheering throughout). The Concert was simply called "Paco de Lucia", no mention of anyone else On the other hand... Gerardo Nuñez, played for a couple of hundred guitar enthusiasts a small event in Dundee. He checked the sound for about a half an hour until it was right, came on bright eyed and bushy tailed as were the rest of his band and just simply wowed everybody out. Not just him, but the whole band.... He spoke to the audience in Spanish and then the Bassist interpreted into English. Some jazzy stuff, some flamenco stuff.. Even the jazzy stuff had great rhythm and composition and got me going. All the Classical buffs as well as the Flamenco buffs were wowed out! That guy is truly an artist. Meanwhile the great Paco de Lucia played to a full house in Scotland's capital, at ten times the fee of the Gerardo concert...and played the concert I described... I was actually more of a Paco fan before I went to the concert! [:D][:D] Jim...if you're listening...you didn't miss anything [:D] Ron

flyeogh -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 7:35:58)
quote: I was actually more of a Paco fan before I went to the concert! The Guardian: Nothing in de Lucia's performance is contrived, "targeted" or predictable. Maybe that explains it Ron[:D] The review gives 5 stars of course. Wonder if the guy went or simply that the air in London is more to Paco's liking[:D] http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,1586666,00.html

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 9:42:43)
Nigel, I suppose to be fair to Paco, I should have known what to expect after "Luzia" and "Cositas Buenas", so in that way I'm a bit like those early "folkies" who went to a Dylan/Band concert and then said it was rubbish. [:D] Thing is most "mature" artists tend to play a mix of their older stuff along with their recent stuff, even though they are sick of playing some of the songs...that's just part of showbiz....unless you're an arrogant genius like Dylan or Paco. [:D] I actually read somewhere on the net that he was playing some stuff from his older albums on this tour, so I was a bit let down. As for the band appearing tired and lacking the energy of the Gerardo concert, it could very well be for a good reason that I don't know about, like hassle with flights or hotels etc. Maybe they drove up from London (about 12 hours or more) and slept on the way? Who knows? Anyway, that was only my impressions of the concert from my point of view and taste. As I said, it was a full house and he certainly got plenty applause, although from overhearing bits of conversations at the interval, things like "John McLaughlin" and "Friday Night in San Francisco" etc could be heard, so I guess it was mainly a Guitar/Jazz/Contemporary type audience. I simply don't believe there are that many Flamenco fans in Scotland! [:D] Anyway, at the end of the day artistic success is measured in sell-out concerts, ticket prices and record sales. If Dylan never had the foresight to go electric, then he'd probably be playing little 150 seat folk clubs around the USA right now and producing CD's on his home computer. cheers Ron

flyeogh -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 10:08:10)
quote: I simply don't believe there are that many Flamenco fans in Scotland keep waving the flag[:)] to change gaitas to guitars is only two letters. But Ron I'm going to pull you up on lumping Dylan with Paco. Remember when Dylan played Rock and Roll he was young and a rebel (which is exactly what his true fans loved him for). He also played half accoustic most of the time. It was also the sixties revolution (your too young to remember no doubt[:D]). And in Alcala last year Dylan played a mix of old and new. He chatted with the audience - even though Spanish audiences IME, as they did that night, chat through openair concerts and use mobile phones. Steady I'm getting on to why Spain is going to the dogs and this is not the forum for that[:o]

Jim Opfer -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 19:05:45)
quote: Jim...if you're listening...you didn't miss anything Jeez! Ron, just tuned in. Glad I missed it, although the alternative for me was being forced along to a evening in a karaoke/curry bar in Glasgow. That was real dross, but my wife's father had organised it coz he wanted to sing some Sinatra and thought it might be his last chance at 78' for a big family get together. Strange thing was, as I sat there getting a headach with the noise from the huge sound system and all those folk singing out of tune, I noticed my brother in law at the opposite end of the table, look at me with a big smile and motion to play some 'air' guitar, his way of rubbing it in. But I wasn't too fussed to tell the truth. I kind of knew it would be the jazzy sextet Paco that I don't like. I'm with you Ron. The guy is a genius and he's definately got the right to play what he wants, but for me, I bought my tickets just because it felt like something I had to do. I'm no great fan of his music and never listen to 'Costas...' Nunez was special. Jim.

Ron.M -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 21:01:57)
quote: Nunez was special Yup Jim...That was a memorable concert. I don't want to keep going on and on about this... But look at the guys on this Forum..(and other forums) What's the stuff a lot of them either do or are studying? Quando Canta El Gallo,.....Punto y Tacon, ... La Barrosa,....Guajiras de Lucia,.....Panaderos...Celosa...Impetu.. This stuff is ancient....at least 30 or more years old! Nobody seems to be uploading their versions of stuff from "Luzia" or "Cositas Buenas" anywhere. Wonder why? [:D] cheers Ron PS Jim... That curry house/karaoke sounded like good fun!

ivan -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 22:36:22)
Hey guys, Just thought I'd say something. Whenever PDL comes to NY I get a chance to speak and hang with him thanks to Tony Acosta ( owner of Luthier music corp. in NYC). Anyway, Paco is very humble and a great human being. However, what some of you say is unfortunately true. Paco is tired and hates to tour and play in big concerts. (he really gets very nervous). In the last concert in NYC, Paco made tons of mistakes and didn't seem to care. What happened though was that Tony, had given him a great bottle of wine and drink the night before the concert. Paco was just tired and hung over. He even moved from Mexico and lives in Toledo . One day he said,' I need a permanent vacation". I

duende -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 22:40:25)
quote: Nobody seems to be uploading their versions of stuff from "Luzia" or "Cositas Buenas" anywhere. well "we" are 30 years after paco and his pack of guitar imitators

duende -> RE: Paco in Edinburgh (Oct. 8 2005 22:43:30)
Ivan i belivew you. Being "the greatest" is hard. I know he is nervous. just think of the presure- Everybody BUT paco say´s he´s the best.

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