José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Full Version)

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Guitart Flamenco -> José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 8:52:51)

José Ramirez III 1986 for sale

José Ramirez III is one of the great spanish guitar maker of last 50 years. This is one of the most beautiful sounding guitars imaginable - it has a rich and yet sweet, old-world sound which only comes with over seventy years of age. This instrument is similar at José Ramirez III flamenco guitar played by Serranito and Sanlucar. The Ramirez III guitars of years 1980/1988 are the better in the market.

For price and more details: atelierdelaguitarra@guitart.it









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bursche -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 11:09:02)

quote:

flamenco guitar played by Serranito and Sanlucar.


I thought they play modified classical guitars by Ramirez, hard to compare.



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 11:13:19)

They plays also same flamenco models of this period - the better of flamenco history of Ramirez III - 1980/1988. This is a great guitar - same power of Reyes and quality sound impressive.



Erik van Goch -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 19:02:04)

As far as i know Manolo Sanlucar plays (played?) indeed a classical Jose Ramirez and in that case i would probably prefer one of the early 60ties. Obviously (like people) every guitar has it's own personality and year of born is no absolute guarantee for (lack of) quality.



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 19:31:09)

I think that the golden time of Ramirez III is 1980/1990 - also A. Segovia has played Ramirez guitar unitll 1985. Of course I speak of Ramirez III and not of Ramirez II o I.



Erik van Goch -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:27:52)

Jude to Segovia the Ramirez II actually became the Steinway of the classical guitar in the 60ties.



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:30:03)

Segovia has played only Ramirez III - not Ramirez II.



TANúñez -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:34:24)

quote:

old-world sound which only comes with over seventy years of age


Can you elaborate on this? are you saying a guitar cannot sound this good unless it's over 70 years old???



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:42:24)

I only says that the best Josè Ramirez III production is 1980/1990 maybe you haven't understood - and is sure that Segovia has played Ramirez III and not Ramirez II that are also great guitars and specially for collector becasue are very very rare (period 1940/50).



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:45:16)

quote:

old-world sound which only comes with over seventy years of age


About this... I think that the magic sound of historical guitar (Manuel Ramirez, Domingo Esteso, Santos Hernandez etc.) is more magic and impressive then a new guitar...



TANúñez -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:51:39)

quote:

About this... I think that the magic sound of historical guitar (Manuel Ramirez, Domingo Esteso, Santos Hernandez etc.) is more magic and impressive then a new guitar...


Ok I think I see what you are saying. It has the old world sound from some of the older guitars made by some of the best makers from that time.



TANúñez -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 20:52:42)

I like older Ramirez blancas a lot. This one looks to be in good condition.



Ramon Amira -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 21:05:11)

It’s true that Segovia played Jose Ramirez III, not II. It’s also true that the very first Jose Ramirez III that Segovia bought and played was actually constructed by Manuel Contreras when he was in the Ramirez workshop.

Ramon



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 21:08:25)

Yes is a nice guitar, perfect restored.
Was property of a professional flamenco cordoba guitarist.
All the best



Erik van Goch -> [Deleted] (Nov. 18 2012 21:09:06)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 18 2012 21:11:49



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 21:15:14)

quote:

You seem to be right in that. Actually i never think in 1, 2 and 3. All i know is that my family owns a classical Ramirez from 1962 and a flamenco Ramirez from 1977 and that both are superb instruments. My father tried out various classical Jose Ramirez guitars from the late 60ties/70ties for his students and didn't like them very much. If the 80ties are indeed his best period i'm looking forwards to try them out one day.



Muy bien... quando quieres puede venir a tocar las guitarras Ramirez flamenca de nuestra colección [;)]

We hope that you can came one day to play our Ramirez flamenco guitars [;)]



Erik van Goch -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 21:35:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guitart Flamenco

Segovia has played only Ramirez III - not Ramirez II.


You are absolutely right. To be honest i never think in I, II or III. All i know is that my father bought us a 1962 Classical Ramirez (with Contreras initial stamp inside) and a 1977 Flamenco Ramirez and that both are superb instruments. My father tried out a couple of classical Ramirez guitars for his university students in the late 60ties/70ties but didn't like them very much. If the 80ties are indeed his best period i sure like to try them out one day.



yourwhathurts69 -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 21:57:13)

I've always thought of the 60s to early 70s as the Ramirez golden age. That's when the work shop had many of Spain's most talented (and famous) luthiers.



Erik van Goch -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 23:07:49)

I think the later models of that period already favored tapered fingerboards and other alterations that were not to everybody's likings (according to my father they were extremely hard to play compared with his 1962 model). But maybe those guitars indeed showed up a couple of years later and the "good period"might very well be extended to the early 70ties depending on your wishes and needs. Some interesting things about the subject were mentioned by the much more knowledgable C Vega (and others) in one of the older posts.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=205171&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=ramirez



aarongreen -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 23:09:54)

I tend to think of the 60's as the golden era for Ramirez guitars. That of course continues into the 70's but the most talented luthier that shop ever produced IMO, Paulino Bernabe, left in 69.



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 23:14:38)

One of things to consider years 80/90 a great period is the superior quality of wood, much better of years 60/70 (period more poor of spanish economy) - in the years 80/90 the reseve of woanderful woods of Ramirez (top befor all) was at level incredible and all woods used ageed many years...



Erik van Goch -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 18 2012 23:36:14)

You mean to say that in the 60 ties (when he and his crew produced the steinway of classical guitar and were covered with orders/demands from all parts of the world by mayor players willing to pay whatever needed) he didn't use the best wood available but saved it for "better days"?



Guest -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 0:41:55)

quote:

One of things to consider years 80/90 a great period is the superior quality of wood, much better of years 60/70 (period more poor of spanish economy) - in the years 80/90 the reseve of woanderful woods of Ramirez (top befor all) was at level incredible and all woods used ageed many years...


this was also said to me when i bought my 87 1A by a different source..
never really questioned it...
it's a kick ass guitar...Pegs, spruce top
loud...old school sound with 'romantic' trebles ..[layed under a bed for 15 years before it was played by previous owner or so i was told..it still is in top condition.....bought it in 2009]
am considering moving mine for a Manuel Caceres...will know within a few weeks as to wether i will go ahead with the deal...
The Caceres has a deeper and larger body..
the other guitarist i play with has a 66 1A...alot of difference in sound and playability...both fine instruments just prefer the bigger 80's tone...

Ramirez Blanca's of the 80's have the 'Double Cypress' sides ...not sure if this contributes in anyway for the extra volume and punch of previous 1A's


Guitart could you PM me your asking price?
also the stamp initials...
i am very unclear to the market value of mine
from different sources an 80's Ramirez can sit between $5000-$7500..
thanks in advance
Al

.... side note is my label is A826
400 + manufactured guitars in a year...



Guitart Flamenco -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 8:02:51)

About the initials inside the guitar...

The guitar maybe was make by Ramirez IV (the genius of Ramirez family) - becasue aren't initials - he normally didn't use initials.



Ruphus -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 9:36:13)

I like mine ( pegs, 1970 ). Badly shaped and worn out pegs, but nicely ligt weight and of good sonics.
Never since I own her did she sound as good like last night. As if fending against the step-child being of mine.
She is only quite decent when played softly / will yet sound pretty nice when played hard. That´s when she unfolds.

What I miss with her is raspyness however. She only knows clean or fuzzing out. Apparently neck relief and fretting won´t allow for well dosed distortion.

Richard has a blanca from the sixties, I have been wondering whether his is being sparse on buzz too.

Ruphus



Guest -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 11:28:45)

quote:

The guitar maybe was make by Ramirez IV (the genius of Ramirez family) - becasue aren't initials - he normally didn't use initials.


either does mine
when i contacted Ramirez about the instrument, Cristina Ramirez they gave me the initials "JM'' as the maker and confirmed it was part of the 'double side' production which lasted during the 80"s..but went no further or responded to my inquiry who JM was...

whether this stands for Jose Ramirez Martinez or somebody else still needs clarification

http://www.guitarrasramirez.com/index.php?seccion=sobre_ramirez&subseccion=&subart=&lang=en&familia=JOS%C9%20RAM%CDREZ%20III&id_familia=25

Ramirez will send info about your guitar for sale, based on the number..

Thank you for the PM
helped quite a bit to know what it may be worth in the current market...


looking forward to the comparison to the Caceres...



aarongreen -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 11:53:48)

Ramirez stopped the practice of luthier initials back in the early 70's. I have yet to see any Ramirez guitar from that point onward with any initials in it. My suspicion is that he was aware that he was building up his future competition as well as perhaps creating a value spread based on the initials on the guitar more than the name on the label .


It's very basic though when it comes to Ramirez or any other guitars, if it's a good one then it's a good one. If you love it then play it and be happy.



C. Vega -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 12:43:59)

Ramirez III went from using initials to using a number for a few years to indentify the person who assembled the guitar from pre-made partially completed components produced by others in the shop. They usually worked on three or four instruments at a time. The number was stamped on the underside of the top beneath the fingerboard extension.
The guitars were not and are not made from start to finish by one person whether it was Ramirez IV, Bernabe, Contreras or anyone else.
The practice of using initials or numbers was no longer in use when the 1986 guitar being discussed here was made.

AlVal,
Cristina Ramirez was, from the serial number, able to identify the employee who assembled of your guitar as "JM" which stands for Julian Moraga Rodriguez.
Ramirez blancas from the 1980s or any other period do not have doubled cypress sides. The classicals had, and the Tradicional model classical still has, rosewood sides laminated to a cypress inner face.



Guest -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 12:57:32)

well that's another dream shattered[;)]
just going by Cristina Ramirez email when i asked about my guitar 'it has doble sides'
also this part from the site

quote:

The new guitar models were built with double sides of cypress in the interior. Later, sycamore was used and later still, half double internal sides were added. These design features remained until 1991.


so put two and two together so to speak...
the sides do seem somewhat thicker than my friends 66
but you could be right

tell me more



C. Vega -> RE: José Ramirez III for sale jewel... (Nov. 19 2012 13:02:05)

Yes, there were variations on the lined/double side design.
Their current De Camara classical model has half-lined sides, the Tradicional has fully lined sides and the Especial has no inner lining/lamination.

What do you mean when you say that the sides of your guitar "seem" thicker than the sides on your friend's '66 model? Were you able to measure them? There may well be some difference in side thicknesses but wood also varies in density, weight, etc. Ramirez flamencos really haven't changed much over the years.



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