RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Full Version)

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tijeretamiel -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 3 2012 20:01:08)

quote:

Well, I've been reading this thread with interest. I've just started a build of a blanca flamenco in the tradional way. While I'm building one guitar, I'm always thinking of my next build. I'm glad someone mentioned the use of walnut for b&s, as I have a stash of black walnut. Also, in my stash is some cherry that I've been wondering if it would make a decent flamenco. All in all, I think mahogany would make a better flamenco than either of the two I've mentioned.
So...yes Someone should build one!


I think Black Walnut would make a immense flamenco guitar. I love it as a tonewood.

Cherry is supposed to be not a massive miles from Sapele, which is very similar to Mahogany. I think Cherry too would make a decent flamenco guitar.

In response to whether Cherry, Black Walnut would be better or worse to Mahogany I think they'd all potentially make good instruments.



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 3 2012 20:25:40)

quote:

Aha, beacon back to Torres´ alleged opinion and papier mache.

I remember someone informed implying that Torres´ wasn´t really just discarding relevance of B&S materials despite the demo with papier mache.


I did not know Torres or get the chance to feel the tips of his ever sensitive little thumbs, but I bet you are right, he understood the potential for backs and sides to color sound in someway.

However lets try a thought experiment:

What if Torres built the papier mache guitar to try to understand back and sides effects of different species by building the most neutral back and sides he could think of, papier mache? That way the famed guitar becomes as much a bench mark for Torres of what the absence of regular wood is, as much as it shows the influence of the top as the major element.

Every test has more than one angle. Another thing to remember about papier mache' is that in Torres time it was not the same papier mache' we made in elementary classrooms by stripping news paper and dipping it into wheat paste to make funky tempera painted purple turkeys for mom at Thanksgiving. In Torres' time papier mache was used to make durable goods like serving trays and lacquered hat boxes. The density of the material was more like a type of pulpy press board we have today. I think of the papier mache guitar of Torres more akin to a thin stiff cardboard, almost like masonite.

So his papier mache' may have well been fairly neutral in terms of sound. Again I speculate, but I did some homework on the goods made in those days with papier mache. And if this is so then it gave him a sort of "sonic grey scale" to compare real woods against.

And lets say this was not even on old twinkle thumbs Torres' brilliant mind, it's still an interesting thought experiment vis a vis alternate woods in flamenco guitars.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 3 2012 22:30:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Blancas basically don´t differ with negras to your ears?

Ruphus

In my opinion back and sides have minimal effect on the voice of the guitar. Luthiers make so few guitars in their lifetimes that it's almost impossible to derive the effect of the b/s wood on the sound. There simply isn't a large enough sample. I've built over 400 guitars and still have never noticed a difference that I could difinitively state.



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 3 2012 23:59:17)

quote:

I've built over 400 guitars and still have never noticed a difference that I could difinitively state.


You need to buy specially tuned rosewood that grows in special groves, with specially tuned sprinkler systems and specially tuned delivery trucks. [:D][:D]

Really I understand about being definitive, but would you hazard some rough opinions on how different woods sound? I can often hear a difference between most rosewood guitars and most cypress guitars.... however I am aching to finish building the California Nutmeg classical with Cedar top I am working on. Nutmeg is like blonde yellow rosewood. I aim to confuse everyone and I can hear it ahead of time:

It's a blanca right?
No it really more like rosewood..
Yeah but it's bright creamy yellow...

It will be fun.



HolyEvil -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 0:45:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanan

I can often hear a difference between most rosewood guitars and most cypress guitars...
It's a blanca right?
No it really more like rosewood..
Yeah but it's bright creamy yellow...


I can hear a differnce between a cypress and rosewood when I play it.
The way the note kinds swells to a 'peak' after u hit the string. And of course the quality of the note.
I don't really like Blanca's sound much. But only when I play it, when others play it, I don't really care.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 9:11:34)

To me, the most important difference is in the feel. A negra reacts differently than a blance. The response is different and so, the input has to be different.

I can hear a difference as well. Its subtle, but its there. An EIR negra has more to the extremes. Deeper bass and brighter and cleane trebles.
This is based on the guitars I´ve made myself and the ones I´ve tried from other builders. I have made a cypress blanca and an EIR negra at the same time, with twin soundboards and where I really tried to make everything as equal as possible. That in terms of meassurements and weighing the soundboards with and without bracing etc.

I could feel and hear a difference and so could other players. And we all agreed that the difference was more in feel that in sound. But remember, that a different feel will also make you and me, the players sound different, because we adjust our playing to the instrument.



Ruphus -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 9:14:42)

Thanks a lot, Stephen, for the very reasonable sounding and nicely digestible explanations ( that matched my general expectations well ).

In respect of how completing parts / the top can do on "sonic grey scale" of papier mache:
Either here on the foro or on AG forum someone once linked to a YT video with a contemporary papier mache build.
That thing was not only built with passion for detail ( from distance visually indiscernable from a common guitar ), but even performed quite to my taste soundwise ( probably as it was of the feather-light construction kinds that I prefer ).

It really made me lusting.
-
Besides, Torres example was described as surrprisingly good sounding too, wasn´t it.
-

Thinking of it:

#
Seems it must not at all be inevitably introducing sonic drawbacks, providing the category of dry [ not sweet ] classicals, and flamencas.

#
Allowing the ultimate in light weight ( aside from maybe carbon fibre ).

#
Though the old gadgets of laquered mache prove how durable it can be, disadvantage should be inferiour stability.

Ruphus



Ruphus -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 9:16:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

... remember, that a different feel will also make you and me, the players sound different, because we adjust our playing to the instrument.


Definitly!



tele -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 10:48:20)

Wouldn't it be then "flamenco rojo"?[;)]

About sound of blanca and negra I found this video:
http://guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1865

I find the difference in tone to be noticeable, but could there be more to it than just the woods of the sides and back that makes the difference in this video?



krichards -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 13:23:55)

I made two flamenco guitars years ago with African Mahogany.
It was at the time of my first experiments with flamenco bracing/setup etc and African Mahogany is much cheaper than Cypress.

My memory is that these guitars were quite bright, not boomy/bassy like some rosewood negras. I would use this wood again except that its not very attractive imo.

I've also experimented with Sycamore (European Maple) which is an outstanding guitar wood and with huge reserves of it all over northern europe.

The problem is, I find, that most buyers want traditional materials, so it has to be Cypress for a blanca, and rosewood for a negra for most people.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 13:49:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana


Really I understand about being definitive, but would you hazard some rough opinions on how different woods sound? I can often hear a difference between most rosewood guitars and most cypress guitars.... however I am aching to finish building the California Nutmeg classical with Cedar top I am working on. Nutmeg is like blonde yellow rosewood. I aim to confuse everyone and I can hear it ahead of time:


I think in most cases negras sound different from blancas because the luthier builds them expecting a different voice and perhaps subconciously alters the construction. I know that we build negras differently to fit the expectations of our clients. We make the body a little deeper and alter the fan bracing slightly.

It's fun to build something different now and then. We're just completing a peg head with Broad Leaf Maple back and sides, Paduak bridge and Bubinga bindings and overlay. It's the first maple guitar for us in over thirty years. I intend to make it bright yellow.



Ricardo -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 18:02:52)

quote:

Backwoods tonal matrix sounds like Dukes of Hazard school of luthiery.


Oh please god, someone build me a daisy dukes guitar!!!!![:D]

I think no one disputes flamenco mechanics are coming into play with the idea of build. Point being is ALL THINGS EQUAL...what subtle difference would the b/s wood contribute. I can usually tell just from a golpe which kind of wood is on back and sides (blanca or negra)...but compressed eq's audio recordings fool the ear. I still can't hear much difference between the guitars of PDL and Vicente on their duet....the two parts blend perfect together with the same voice almost. And we are talking a conde negra vs a reyes blanca!!

Ricardo



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 4 2012 21:29:12)

quote:

I think in most cases negras sound different from blancas because the luthier builds them expecting a different voice and perhaps subconciously alters the construction. I know that we build negras differently to fit the expectations of our clients. We make the body a little deeper and alter the fan bracing slightly.


With all due respect I don't think that's the case... I personally don't alter the fan bracing or dimensions of the box simply because I'm working with a different back and side wood.

I tend to agree 100% with Anders when it comes to Cypress vs. Indian Rosewood. He has often noted the soft, gentle distortion in the trebles of a Blanca when played hard, which is what makes them perfect guitars for accompaniment. They don't shriek or boom over a singer's voice but reinforce the midrange and punctuate lines with a percussive quality. They can also match the percussive, dry quality in a dancer's footwork.
A negra typically offers a wide spectrum of sound and more separation but can become shrill and annoying when dug into in an accompaniment setting.

I'm definitely more of a Cypress guy too but it can be exhilarating to play a good negra for a while.

I've also been thinking about Mahogany.



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 5:13:55)

quote:

Oh please god, someone build me a daisy dukes guitar!!!!!


I'll do it, I'll even make the cut off shorts Conde' orange. Provided you wear a clean white Boss Hogg outfit and play it on the internet. [:D]

You'll play play great "Barbara Bach" with it too...[;)]

Enos!! Enos!! Where is my axe??



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 5:32:31)

I remember once when I saw Chrissy Hynde fronting the Pretenders she brought up the topic of negra vs blanca, and I saw Sting and Billy Idol do it too. These were long arduous discussions of insidious intent while in the Pretenders case James Honeyman Scott stood by placidly while Chrissy talked for 35 minutes about the virtues of Negra over Blanca.

Andy Summers got pissed off at Sting because he did the same thing, then Andy whipped out a mahogany nylon string and began to play Message in a Bottle while Sting prattled on about Cypress and tradition. B o r i n g

Billy Idol is the worst, he sneers like a sheep herder who just bought a new foot stool. he never stops talking about his Rosewood bed frame and monogramed bondage gear. White Wedding my arse.

Anyway the point is, if you are going to kiss Anders ass you should do it with stealth and decorum, and never unless you have drunk at least seven beers and can stand straight a tall like a Walnut Tree for three hours in meditation.

It is time for bed now, good night.

This is Walter Cronkite saying, F- you and good sushi to you all!

Cheers



jshelton5040 -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 14:11:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1


With all due respect I don't think that's the case... I personally don't alter the fan bracing or dimensions of the box simply because I'm working with a different back and side wood.


Andy,
For years we built them the same as well. It's probably been in the last ten years or so that we've altered the negras. When I said that I couldn't definitively state the difference I didn't mean to imply there was no difference but that I am unable to say exactly what it is. There are simply too many variables involved from one guitar to the next for me to able to state anything specific. It stands to reason that using a wood that is harder, heavier, more stiff with more mass to the back and sides must make a difference but does it affect the voice more than variations in neck wood, top wood, fingerboard thickness and density, etc. I simply can't say. I do know that I've always preferred playing cedar top negras.



aarongreen -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 14:29:52)

quote:

Oh please god, someone build me a daisy dukes guitar!!!!!


Until that guitar is made, perhaps this will permanently satisfy your Daisy Dukes obsession




Ricardo -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 15:33:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

quote:

Oh please god, someone build me a daisy dukes guitar!!!!!


Until that guitar is made, perhaps this will permanently satisfy your Daisy Dukes obsession



Oh man...well...it will get me through the winter at least.[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 5 2012 16:51:20)

I hate formula.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 6 2012 8:38:03)

quote:


I made two flamenco guitars years ago with African Mahogany.
It was at the time of my first experiments with flamenco bracing/setup etc and African Mahogany is much cheaper than Cypress.

My memory is that these guitars were quite bright, not boomy/bassy like some rosewood negras. I would use this wood again except that its not very attractive imo.

I've also experimented with Sycamore (European Maple) which is an outstanding guitar wood and with huge reserves of it all over northern europe.

The problem is, I find, that most buyers want traditional materials, so it has to be Cypress for a blanca, and rosewood for a negra for most people.


Thanks for sharing your experience.
I agree with the conservatism when it comes to clients. And flamenco clients are by far the most conservative ones. I´ve decided to only stock Med. Cypress and Indian rosewood for flamencos and maybe some odd piece that I have lying around. This way I can also keep things cheaper. It costs a hell of a lot of money to stock a lot of different kinds of wood.

Honduran Mahogany weighs more or less the same as Med. Cypress, which was onbe of the reasons I asked about it. African Mahogany is a bit lighter, so I can imagine that it´ll sound well. I agree that freshly cut, its not so interesting to look at. But leave it a month where there´s a lot of light and it changes to a beautifull red brown mahogany color.. Not far from Honduran mahogany.
Sapelly I just cant stand. It reminds me of the doors kitchens in cheap concrete constructions. They are everywhere and they make me sick.



tele -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 11:07:13)

I talked with Antonio Raya Pardo of Granada and he said he built a guitar for himself with flamed spanish cedar. I've read the tone in electric guitars is similar to honduras mahogany and it's light weight. Maybe could be a good alternative to "basic" mahogany?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 16:09:42)

quote:

"basic" mahogany?


Mahogany comes in the most bizarre quilts you can imagine.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Leñador -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 17:04:42)

Whoa!!! I love it!!



tele -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 19:00:56)

Nice, but I am thinking about it as maybe a better but similar alternative when it comes to tone, not about the looks. At least it sounds better on electric guitars or so I have heard...



Leñador -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 19:08:35)

I don't think wood makes much of a difference on solid body electrics....... Not nearly as much as pickups, string gauge, proper set up, scale and of course paint color [:D] Pickups more then anything.......Anyways back to Anders thread.



tele -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 21:00:07)

quote:


I don't think wood makes much of a difference on solid body electrics....... Not nearly as much as pickups, string gauge, proper set up, scale and of course paint color Pickups more then anything.......Anyways back to Anders thread.


I play electric guitar and I can say it makes a very noticeable difference(so does anyone else who has played enough or has ear to hear it).
But lets not go off topic



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 21:27:15)

quote:

Mahogany comes in the most bizarre quilts you can imagine.



I think that is really unattractive. Frankly it looks vulgar. It looks like a greased up body builder flexing with really gross veins showing.



Leñador -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 22:00:18)

quote:

I think that is really unattractive. Frankly it looks vulgar. It looks like a greased up body builder flexing with really gross veins showing.


Ewww.........killed the dream for me..........[8D]



estebanana -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 9 2012 22:36:22)

Hahahaha......

Plain wood makes better guitars anyway.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides? (Nov. 10 2012 8:45:06)

I think it looks vulgar to.

So Tele, you dont like the sound of mahogany on electrical guitars. The best sounding electrical guitar I´ve had was an old all mahogany Gibson SG.. Wov, did that bird sing. But it had two problems. Neck heavy and it wouldnt stay in tune for long because it was to wobbly.



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