Stiffness of guitar

Stiffness of guitar (Full Version)

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Rmn -> Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 23 2012 22:11:47)
Hello luthiers, I have a question about the stiffness of my guitar. It's a palosanto guitar, built by a luthier from a village near Sevilla. Its nice and well built but the playability and sound change drastically. what is bothering me is that it gets way too stiff often. then its very hard to play (It destroys my left hand and my right hand technique gets poor because of that) and the sound changes not to my liking. The sound changes to less harmonically and "bigger" more metallic and ugly sound. It really looses harmonics and aura, it looses its "sweetness". My question is: because it's a nice guitar and was quite expensive, how can I change the stiffness of it? Can I putt something to suck out the humidity inside the guitar or go back to the luthier to scrape off some from the bracings or to sand the top to be less thick? He doesnt have any idea himself, so i have to look for a solution. I have some serios theater concerts and a lot of practicing hours and in the studio. so i'm quite dependent of the guitar.... I also must add that he finished the guitar three months ago. But the label sais 2011. So it took him more than half a year to make it.

Tom Blackshear -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 23 2012 23:13:36)
You might try and use a string with less tension but there is not much a builder or repairman can tell you without seeing the guitar.

rogeliocan -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 23 2012 23:17:03)
I am no expert but am curious. You say 'too stiff often', when does it change? Is it something to do with humidity, you seem to point to that. Wouldn't too much humidity make the guitar less stiff and with less sound? the opposite of what you say? It will be interesting to hear what the luthiers have to say.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 7:36:59)
Your post is difficult to understand and maybe you use wrong words. Stiffness or pulsation of a guitar is not really a variable factor. It might change a bit with changes of humidity, but we are talking very small percentages and very subtle changes. Stiffness has to do with the thickness of the soundboard and bracing. If the braces are to stiff, it can be done, but its difficult to do well and not all arms fit within the limits of the soundhole and its not easy to get your plane inside a guitar and you can easily end up making everything worse. Besides, you end up with more or less square braces and that was not the intention. If the soundboard is to thick, theoretically it can be sanded down, but you always end up with a soundboard that is thinner where the braces are. Stiffness/pulsation is very personal and often you have to look for a guitar or builder that suits your needs.

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 8:32:52)
The problem is that I don't know how to describe the situation. I ve done some research in topics here and on internet and tried to describe the situation with the knowledge gathered. I forgot to say that temperature is an important factor as well. If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play. Some times I warm up a cloth nearly as big as the soundboard and when it gets imposible to play again I put the guitar back in the case and put the cloth on the soundboard and close it. Sometimes this helps, but not always I also don't think it depends on technique or whenever I play longer on the guitar, because I have a two hours technique schedule daily and many times the guitar is stiff from the first moment when I take it out of the case.

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 20:25:52)
some else one has an idea? thanks!

El Kiko -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 21:22:18)
The only thing I once came across to do with a 'stiff' guitar , meaning . a lot of string tension ... was to do with the 'string Break angle ' especially at the bridge end , As this angle increases so will the tension for the same note ... There is a lot of stuff to wade through about this on the internet , and it may not be what you need , if so , then sorry ... Also the luthiers here will help clarify if it is relevant or not ... However here is one thing to get you started ... Even though this is not a flamenco guitar the theory still holds .. and I thought it was well explained ... By the way my freinds guitar that was 'Stiff' was also as a result very loud .. by comparison, http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm

estebanana -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 21:39:16)
Where are you located? In Sevilla? The guitar sounds overbuilt for flamenco. If you are in Sevilla take it to Barba or Postigo and have them help you search for a local builder with knowledge of what to do. Or make the trip to Huelva and see Anders!

Dave K -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 24 2012 21:42:38)
If you don't have a problem with tuning down a half or a whole note, you can make your guitar much less stiff to play... Cheers, Dave

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 8:29:33)
quote: Where are you located? In Sevilla? The guitar sounds overbuilt for flamenco. If you are in Sevilla take it to Barba or Postigo and have them help you search for a local builder with knowledge of what to do. Or make the trip to Huelva and see Anders! postigo is a guitarist and sells guitars and barba is a hideous person and overpriced. they both are actually. i would really like to have time finally to go and meet Anders thou. that is a good idea quote: If you don't have a problem with tuning down a half or a whole note, you can make your guitar much less stiff to play... Cheers, Dave that is not an option

gerundino63 -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 8:57:16)
How high is your stringspace between the top and the 6 th string at the bridge? And the string space between the upper side of fret 12 and the underside of the 6 th string? It is a possibillity that the bone is way too high so the tension is big.

Morante -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 9:45:15)
Caling Postigo and Barba hideous persons is a bit over the top. Can you support this statement?

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 10:24:36)
postigo is a guitarist that has a shop and a tablao. both the shop and the tablao are wayyy too expencive. i am his neighbor barba thinks he is a king. his guitar are nice, but they start at 7500... thats abuse of the name. and his reparations, that are being done by his sons are also too expensive. i went many times to people like these, the only thing that they do is criticize your guitar like its a peace of crap, pull out a fabric guitar that theyve put their label in and pretend like thats the guitar of your dreams to try to sell it to you for 1800 euro. i mean its hideous to go to these two because there are many other builders here

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 10:35:49)
quote: How high is your stringspace between the top and the 6 th string at the bridge? And the string space between the upper side of fret 12 and the underside of the 6 th string? It is a possibillity that the bone is way too high so the tension is big. it's not the action. that's ok and that's something you can get used to. but when the top is becomes so stiff that it feels like you have to move a big rock when you play and the strings sound like a clothesline, that i can not get used to...

gerundino63 -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 10:49:19)
Well, the only thing that is left than is the post from Anders. Get rid of the guitar if it is possible, and try to find one you like. A guitar supposed to be an instrument, that you do not have to think or worry about, get used to it a bit, ok, but afterwards play it. Veel succes! Peter

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 11:07:30)
quote: i went many times to people like these, the only thing that they do is criticize your guitar like its a peace of crap, pull out a fabric guitar that theyve put their label in and pretend like thats the guitar of your dreams to try to sell it to you for 1800 euro. uy uy... I understand what you say, BUT.... Spain is like that and its 100% Spanish culture and I dont think that Postigo or Barba are very different from others I have met. Remember, that showing off and believing you are the king is totally accepted in Spain and it has its very possitive side as well. You dont get all this stupid small talk that we have in other cultures about people thinking they are something that according to others they are not etc. Somehow, those of us comming from outside Spain, have to accept that here, things are like that. My personal attitude is that I try not to mix to much with this kind of energy and instead do things the way I believe is correct and which is on par with my upbringing and my culture. And then respect that Spain is Spain and I´m not Spanish. (although it can be difficult sometimes.) I sometimes go to Sevilla. Maybe we could meet one day.

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 11:14:00)
ok, that would be nice Anders. Let me know whenever you are here. I live in the center, you could come by for dinner

XXX -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 12:20:54)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rmn If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play. I dont think its the guitar itself that suddenly "gets" more harmonics, and if so only to a low degree, but rather the air molecules move differently when at a higher temperature. After all, all the sound we hear is the movement of molecules in the air. The playability also increase with temperature, but there again im not sure how much of that is due a warmer guitar rather than to simply having warmer hands. But its an interesting topic and still not fully uncovered as i see. Im not sure if this is something you wanted to address to too, but i am particularly interested in finding out what determines the tension of a string on a guitar. So far it always bothered me that the strings have all different tension and when choosing strings, i try to pick the ones with the lowest tension possible.

RobJe -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 13:17:41)
I recognise the problem and I have owned a couple of guitars (one blanca and one negra) that were like this. On some days they were very hard and unappealing to play. I felt that humidity was a factor. Both guitars were quite stiff to play at any time but they did produce very good sound when played hard. Both guitars were made in semi-factory production shops and I believe that in such places tops are often made too thick - perhaps because there is no time or expertise to consider how thick each top needs to be based on the properties of the wood and perhaps because a thicker guitar is more robust and less likely to be returned with a crack in it. If you find yourself changing string brands and/or tensions in a desperate attempt to improve your guitar you need a new one. Guitars are for playing and not for worrying about. My advice is to move on and sell it to someone with heavy hands or to someone who likes the idea of owning a pretty flamenco guitar but will never bother to learn to play it. Rob

TANúñez -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 13:32:38)
quote: Hello luthiers, I have a question about the stiffness of my guitar. It's a palosanto guitar, built by a luthier from a village near Sevilla. Its nice and well built but the playability and sound change drastically. what is bothering me is that it gets way too stiff often. then its very hard to play (It destroys my left hand and my right hand technique gets poor because of that) and the sound changes not to my liking. The sound changes to less harmonically and "bigger" more metallic and ugly sound. It really looses harmonics and aura, it looses its "sweetness". My question is: because it's a nice guitar and was quite expensive, how can I change the stiffness of it? Can I putt something to suck out the humidity inside the guitar or go back to the luthier to scrape off some from the bracings or to sand the top to be less thick? He doesnt have any idea himself, so i have to look for a solution. I have some serios theater concerts and a lot of practicing hours and in the studio. so i'm quite dependent of the guitar.... I also must add that he finished the guitar three months ago. But the label sais 2011. So it took him more than half a year to make it. RMN, You shouldn't have to make ANY modifications to a new guitar. If you do not like it, you should have the right to return or exchange it. Was this guitar built for you or did you just buy it? either way, do not spend any money or waste time trying to get a new guitar to play right. The way you like it. Don't waste anymore of your time and stress over this. Return it and find something that you like.

n85ae -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 16:04:17)
I have two Pedro De Miguels, Blanca and Negra. They are EXACTLY like this. They sound great when played hard, and on some days are just wonderfull. Other days you have to work harder. They never sound bad, just require more work. I still like them though. I have a Carillo as well, which is much more supple and easy to play all the time. However it lacks a certain sound characteristic that the PDM's have ... They are all definetly affected by humidity. Which of course they should, because they are all made of wood. Regards, Jeff quote: I recognise the problem and I have owned a couple of guitars (one blanca and one negra) that were like this. On some days they were very hard and unappealing to play. I felt that humidity was a factor. Both guitars were quite stiff to play at any time but they did produce very good sound when played hard. Both guitars were made in semi-factory production shops and I believe that in such places tops are often made too thick - perhaps because there is no time or expertise to consider how thick each top needs to be based on the properties of the wood and perhaps because a thicker guitar is more robust and less likely to be returned with a crack in it.

estebanana -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 20:56:48)
I think you should strive to meet Anders for an in person evaluation of the guitar. It is too difficult to address this problem abstractly without actually laying hands on the guitar. In the end this may not be your guitar. You guitar should be more reliable than this.

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 25 2012 22:41:31)
quote: RMN, You shouldn't have to make ANY modifications to a new guitar. If you do not like it, you should have the right to return or exchange it. Was this guitar built for you or did you just buy it? either way, do not spend any money or waste time trying to get a new guitar to play right. The way you like it. Don't waste anymore of your time and stress over this. Return it and find something that you like. thanks for the reply. i wish I could, the situation is a bit more complicated because the guitar was made for me in the end quote: I have two Pedro De Miguels, Blanca and Negra. They are EXACTLY like this. They sound great when played hard, and on some days are just wonderfull. Other days you have to work harder. They never sound bad, just require more work. I still like them though. I have a Carillo as well, which is much more supple and easy to play all the time. However it lacks a certain sound characteristic that the PDM's have ... They are all definetly affected by humidity. Which of course they should, because they are all made of wood. Regards, Jeff ah thats very nice to hear! i thought I was the only one who is noticing this kind of issue. Well I mean mine never sounds bad either, but its just that with certain stuff you just cant work harder and there will be less sound coming out because there is so much tention. And mine as well, when it has a good day, man it plays and sounds awsome. thats why I want to look for a solution, because its a good guitar. a piano, like they say here. quote: I think you should strive to meet Anders for an in person evaluation of the guitar. It is too difficult to address this problem abstractly without actually laying hands on the guitar. In the end this may not be your guitar. You guitar should be more reliable than this. Ok, there you have a good point. Indeed about the reliability. i get very nervous when i have a recording session or an important concert with press and filmcameras all around. Besides that I just love a guitar that plays good and is nor too loose nor very tense. To go back to Barba, he has a very good balance always in that in his guitars. Ojala that one day I will find a guitar like that or find a solution for this one. because it was nearly 3k

Rmn -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 10:12:51)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Rmn If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play. I dont think its the guitar itself that suddenly "gets" more harmonics, and if so only to a low degree, but rather the air molecules move differently when at a higher temperature. After all, all the sound we hear is the movement of molecules in the air. The playability also increase with temperature, but there again im not sure how much of that is due a warmer guitar rather than to simply having warmer hands. But its an interesting topic and still not fully uncovered as i see. Im not sure if this is something you wanted to address to too, but i am particularly interested in finding out what determines the tension of a string on a guitar. So far it always bothered me that the strings have all different tension and when choosing strings, i try to pick the ones with the lowest tension possible. thanks for that reply, haven't seen it yet. These questions I've already asked myself many times. And many times I thought it was my own pulsation of the hands or about the air molecules and movement of sound as a wave. But it really keeps coming to me that I think that it has got to do with the soundboard: either at higher humidity it gets more volume and that influences the tension on the strings, either the temperature makes the molecules of the wood of the soundboard more "loose" so that the whole top gets loose as well and that will influence the tension on the strings (less tension) and the sound (more harmonics) I also feel it very clearly when playing, when the tension is high its so crappy to play... For that, to prove to myself that I'm not crazy I want to buy a newton meter, a hygrometer, thermometer and keep a logbook. I just don't know if there is a method and an instrument (newton meter) for measuring the tension on the strings of the guitar. and wether I should measure the humidity and temperature inside the guitar or outside it

gerundino63 -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 10:42:39)
just trust your feeling, it is way more sensitive than an istrument. A guitar, especially a new built one is moving around a bit. You are perhaps very sensitive for that, maybe you are more sensitive for other things too. When I used to get a new guitar in the past, i allways had the first year a love - hate relationship with it. When the sound is ok, I get picky on other things, playability, is the sound louder on this fret than the other? Is the bass more this, do I hear a side sound. Comparing with other guitars....etc.....etc. Sometimes the sound just drops dead, next day it is ok again...Maybe a higher or a lower bone, other strings..... It drived me sometimes mad. Than I learned to accept the guitar as it is, do not think about it anymore. Also I learned, that playability comes first, than sound. But that is maybe only personal.....

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 10:44:03)
Ok, you say that the guitar plays the best and is loose when its pretty high humidity. That makes me think that there´s a good chance that this guitar was built under pretty high humidity, because thats when it relaxes. Does your builder work in a humidity controled environment? (few Spanish builders do) It has two problems. Where you live, its pretty dry at least 6 - 8month a year. Guitars built under high humidity are fragile and cracks easily when it gets dry. Be carefull with it and keep it humidified.

rogeliocan -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 10:47:07)
quote: For that, to prove to myself that I'm not crazy I want to buy a newton meter, a hygrometer, thermometer and keep a logbook. I just don't know if there is a method and an instrument (newton meter) for measuring the tension on the strings of the guitar. and wether I should measure the humidity and temperature inside the guitar or outside it Good lord! You should not have to do that with what is supposed to be the baby you had built for you. You should just sell the guitar and get another one. It does not mean it is a poor guitar, it's just not for you.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 13:33:00)
quote: You should just sell the guitar and get another one. Reality is that Ramón is in Sevilla, Andalucia, Spain. Here we have a VERY serious economical crisis. And selling things means 50% or more loss..... Youth unemployment in Andalucia is around 65% these days.

TANúñez -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 26 2012 17:18:05)
quote: thanks for the reply. i wish I could, the situation is a bit more complicated because the guitar was made for me in the end Rmn, disregard my comments. I didn't stop to think that you are in Europe and often times, business is conducted differently in the US. Here is the US. many builders offer trial periods or some type of return/exchange policy. That may not be an option for you there.

kintla -> RE: Stiffness of guitar (Oct. 27 2012 1:25:44)
I really learned some things. At first I thought, that's "crazy" but what Gerundino63 said on his last message makes a lot of sense. And go see Anders, heck you might even find a guitar you like! Sherman (been gone for a while)

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