n85ae -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 30 2012 23:53:04)
That's why I chimed in, you're just arguing about why to not share anything. However I'll concede my comments serve no purpose either, so I'll do something else to occupy my time.
Regards, Jeff
Ricardo -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 2:25:59)
To me guitars are like women. All have good points and very difficult to deal with issues. None is perfect, but each beautiful in someway, looks, feel, sound, response, etc. You builders are so lucky you even get to construct your "own woman" ....it's pretty cool.
But you ain't ever gonna build the perfect one cuz the players all are looking for something different....and sometimes it depends on the time of month! [;)]
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 2:34:21)
quote:
To me guitars are like women. All have good points and very difficult to deal with issues. None is perfect, but each beautiful in someway,
Wow! Took the words right out of my mouth!
Jeff Highland -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 7:55:35)
I would be interested in seeing a video of your process Tom, I get a bit lost in the words of your descriptions, a video would clarify
kominak -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 8:07:46)
Copied from another thread, since this thread is partly about Reyes plan/tuning:
quote:
I wanted to ask this for a long time - midrange quality of the sound.
I kind of understand how the quality of the top, braces and bridge affect basses and trebles. But how these components affect the texture of the midrange?
How to achieve that slightly nasal, vocal-like midrange quality of Reyes guitars, that you can hear very clearly here:
What can it be? The Reyes's design without closing braces? Some special graduation of the top? I know there isn't a certain recipe, but I'm also interested in thoughts, theories etc.
Thanks a lot for your input!
Ruphus -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 8:12:58)
quote:
ORIGINAL: n85ae
I found this amusing post on ehow.com ... Yes it's not top tuning, but ...
Guitars can be more than just versatile musical instruments--they can also be beautiful decorative pieces that accentuate any room design. However, sometimes a guitar's paint can clash with the rest of the furniture and decorations in a room. Luckily, with a little bit of patience and the proper tools, anyone can repaint a guitar. Although several guitar painting methods exist, using spray paint is by far the simplest and the cheapest way to achieve a professional quality paint job.
Ouch!
Anders Eliasson -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 8:19:23)
quote:
Once you start telling people they can't or shouldn't do something because they are children, then they start losing respect.
I dont think anyone has treated you or anyone else like a child......
I´m not a child either and I know perfectly well how the world funcions and that if you buy and pay a guitar, you have the right to do whatever you want to do with that guitar. So go ahead and do whatever you like. I´m not going to stop you.
The ethical discussion is there, like it or not, because its important. Most of you guys like that there are still some building guitars the personal way. Luthiers making guitar alone in their workshop. The way that world that you defend works mean that every day we are less. And one day, most probably, we will be doing something else and you will be playing a Yamaha.
In a world where the only thing that matters is the power of money. (Everything else comes second. just look at this discussion and what you say yourself) There wont be a place for full time excentric luthiers trying to live aside that world. So think about what you prefer. I will respect your choice and I hope you´ll respect that I will NEVER shut up when it comes to defending something that REALLY matters to me.
And no, its not about not wanting to share. You´re being rude when you say so. I´ve been here 9+ years sharing and sharing and sharing. So relax, please.
gbv1158 -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 10:58:59)
quote:
Guitars can be more than just versatile musical instruments--they can also be beautiful decorative pieces that accentuate any room design.
a guitar is an instrument that has "voice". when it ends up being in a room es the same as a piece of forniture or a decorative piece, then it becomes mute.... maybe able to evoke other memories.... but it is MUTE!, it is the "shadow" of the guitar that was before .. .. and a shadow is other than the thing itself.
ciao, :-) giambattista
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 12:13:42)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
I would be interested in seeing a video of your process Tom, I get a bit lost in the words of your descriptions, a video would clarify
There is a owner of a film company who could do it if he has time but I think he is busy most of the time and has very little chance to do it. So, it's not a good time for it right now.
Don Dionisio -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 12:43:36)
Ole! Some very wise words there. As BB King said to Bono many years ago: Those are some heavy lyrics from such a young guy!
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 12:51:40)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kominak
Copied from another thread, since this thread is partly about Reyes plan/tuning:
quote:
I wanted to ask this for a long time - midrange quality of the sound.
I kind of understand how the quality of the top, braces and bridge affect basses and trebles. But how these components affect the texture of the midrange?
How to achieve that slightly nasal, vocal-like midrange quality of Reyes guitars, that you can hear very clearly here:
What can it be? The Reyes's design without closing braces? Some special graduation of the top? I know there isn't a certain recipe, but I'm also interested in thoughts, theories etc.
Thanks a lot for your input!
Reyes has been building quite a few different tops as far as his experimentation goes, over the years, but the basic 7 fan brace system seems to be his favorite. I haven't had the chance to investigate many of his tops but I'm sure most of them are 7 braces.
And with-in these 7 braces the 2003 plan I drew for the GAL is a little shorter than an '87 plan I have, from a builder friend of mine, and which Amigo plays. Reyes builds different top thickness' anywhere from 2.5 mm to about 2 mm. and the top you are referring to, with the nasal quality, is most likely built thinner toward the middle of the top with slight relief at the edges but with longer braces, which would be more aggressive sounding.
But the brace tapers and shapes set a lot of the voicing and it is vital to be able to understand what Reyes did with this technique. So, a good start with this would be to buy the plan from the GAL or LMI and view its layout.
Also, some nasal quality can be achieved by sanding slightly behind the bridge on the treble side, over by the edge; ever so slightly until the tone adjusts itself.
To eliminate the nasal would be to keep the top fairly even, sanding more above the bridge, on the sides, not the middle, when the guitar is strung up and playing.
I have one technique I'm using right now, to sand the top on either side, for the balance, from the top edge of the box to the bridge, and then remove the bridge and slightly sand past the bridge arm areas, not in the middle and not down to the bottom of the top, then slightly sand across where the bridge is located, to thin it under the bridge....then I finish the top and re-install the bridge after the finish is done.
I then string it up and play it for a few days and do some fine-tuning if necessary to bring everything into line with what I'm trying to achieve. My last guitar done this way defied human logic it was so good. I could be on to something here. But I'll see if I can repeat this process efficiently. I hope this makes sense to you.
Oh, another thing is that I believe the top is built fairly flat, not domed.
n85ae -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 13:33:06)
I was curious about this, because this subject of salt keeps coming up. So I did some reading. Basically "lignin" which forms a major part of the cell walls in wood, is broken down by salt. Salt is of course soluble in water. So a bit of salt on a wet fingertip rubbed into wood would indeed weaken the wood by breaking down the lignin in the wood. Not by drawing out moisture, but rather by breaking down the structure of the wood.
Also - Apologies to Anders, etc. for any of my previous posts that were perhaps offensive as the result of boredom, and access to a keyboard.
Regards, Jeff
quote:
People's knickers seem to knot up over the salt business. What Tom says is that the water softens the brace. The salt is supposed to draw the water back out of the wood.
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 14:14:44)
quote:
ORIGINAL: n85ae
I was curious about this, because this subject of salt keeps coming up. So I did some reading. Basically "lignin" which forms a major part of the cell walls in wood, is broken down by salt. Salt is of course soluble in water. So a bit of salt on a wet fingertip rubbed into wood would indeed weaken the wood by breaking down the lignin in the wood. Not by drawing out moisture, but rather by breaking down the structure of the wood.
Regards, Jeff
quote:
People's knickers seem to knot up over the salt business. What Tom says is that the water softens the brace. The salt is supposed to draw the water back out of the wood.
I implied in another post that salt washes out the pectin, a starchy like substance in the wood pores, and of course this weakens the wood unless you put minerals back into the wood to stiffen it. So the idea is to use it sparingly. And salt does promote drying of the wood, etc. But thanks for clarifying the weakening of the wood in areas where salt is used.
Anders Eliasson -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 15:51:51)
quote:
perhaps offensive as the result of boredom, and access to a keyboard.
[:D][:D][:D][:D] That is a dangerous mixture. I know it to well myself and its not always that I remember to hit the cancel button in time.
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 18:30:59)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
I would be interested in seeing a video of your process Tom, I get a bit lost in the words of your descriptions, a video would clarify
Perhaps you could question the finer points and get me to clarify it better. That might work.
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 18:57:12)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kominak
Copied from another thread, since this thread is partly about Reyes plan/tuning:
quote:
I wanted to ask this for a long time - midrange quality of the sound.
I kind of understand how the quality of the top, braces and bridge affect basses and trebles. But how these components affect the texture of the midrange?
How to achieve that slightly nasal, vocal-like midrange quality of Reyes guitars, that you can hear very clearly here:
What can it be? The Reyes's design without closing braces? Some special graduation of the top? I know there isn't a certain recipe, but I'm also interested in thoughts, theories etc.
Thanks a lot for your input!
After listening to this video for awhile I think the top, being sanded a little thinner toward the middle, is not that nasal but is more tuned to the 2nd and 3rd strings which are a little prominent, and this projects a certain guttural quality rather than a smooth sounding tone. In other words the 3rd string is a little out of balance, but still guided by the influence of the fan brace sizes and shapes.
Again, I would suggest that you get the 2003 plan to check out the fan brace placements and the way they are sized, shaped, and tapered. www.luth.org
I have no monetary interest in this plan.
And if any builder here would like to build the plan, then I'll be happy to talk you through it, step by step, to tune the fan braces. One vital point is to make the trebles strings snap rather than bounce up and down when played. The way the braces are tapered has a lot to do with it.
Sean -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 20:07:45)
I'm curious about the bridge weight Tom? The dimensions for the bridge on the plan seem a little on the heavy side. My current bridges are 16grams but they are much smaller.
kominak -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 20:26:35)
Thanks a lot, Tom. Would you mind going into more details regarding differences between your reyes plan and the '87 reyes plan?
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 20:54:14)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sean
I'm curious about the bridge weight Tom? The dimensions for the bridge on the plan seem a little on the heavy side. My current bridges are 16grams but they are much smaller.
A lighter weight bridge is not going to hurt it much but be sure to keep the length and width the same size to fit the design, and place the bridge exactly like the plan shows for the top. Also, keep the playing scale exactly 655 mm for the design's sake.
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 21:03:32)
quote:
ORIGINAL: kominak
Thanks a lot, Tom. Would you mind going into more details regarding differences between your reyes plan and the '87 reyes plan?
It will take a lot of band width to explain so the best way to say it, is they are a little longer and placed slightly more in line with the top grain but not enough to say it's totally different.
Get the 2003 plan and it will clear up a lot for you. www.luth.org then you can add a little length and open or close the fan braces if you want to. I can help you better to alter this plan than try and explain the other since there is no printed copy you can buy.
Sean -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 21:23:49)
Is the space between the top of the fan braces and the lower harmonic bar, the same on both, 2003 and 1987?
Anders Eliasson -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 21:58:25)
quote:
Thanks a lot, Tom. Would you mind going into more details regarding differences between your reyes plan and the '87 reyes plan?
The Reyes plan on Luth.org is a very well drawn plan based on the wrong guitar. It has a 11mm setup at the bridge and because of that, it cannot be considered a flamenco guitar because 9 out of 10 professional flamenco guitarists would just give it back and say its unplayable. Never mind the sound, the voice, the finetuning or the feather in the hat .
I´ve said this 117 times, but since TomB keeps trying to make himself the king of flamenco plan drawer using that (darn) plan, I might have to repeat myself 117 times more or what?
SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM. You havent said anything else during your member ship on this forum. It its always the same. REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT. SPAM SPAM SPAM.
Where´s this forums spam filter?
C. Vega -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 22:55:38)
He's been doing the same thing over on the Acoustic Guitar forum for about as long as, if not even longer than, he's been doing it here. Nothing new since day one. Just the same tired old song and dance routine. It really gets old.
Yawn.
estebanana -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 23:23:11)
quote:
He's been doing the same thing over on the Acoustic Guitar forum for about as long as he's been doing it here. Nothing new since day one. Just the same tired old song and dance.
Yawn.
Plus one.
I'm bored out of my skull by TB's relentless brace shaving nonsense and faux participation.
estebanana -> RE: fine tuning a top (Oct. 31 2012 23:35:39)
quote:
To me guitars are like women. All have good points and very difficult to deal with issues. None is perfect, but each beautiful in someway, looks, feel, sound, response, etc. You builders are so lucky you even get to construct your "own woman" ....it's pretty cool.
I will make a guitar for myself soon Ricardo and I am warming up playing steady and seriously again after a back injury that has kept me from playing the cello and the guitar. it has been very difficult on me to go without playing music myself. Little by little I will get it back. It has been two years since I have been able to have any length of practice session without back pain. But in the mean time I know you can 'construct' your own woman too. I will make myself a lovely feminine guitar, I might even paint it orange. You can visit this site to plan your own woman:
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Nov. 1 2012 0:53:39)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sean
Is the space between the top of the fan struts, and the lower harmonic bar the same on both?
Please clarify....not sure what you mean.
estebanana -> RE: fine tuning a top (Nov. 1 2012 0:53:55)
quote:
SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM. You havent said anything else during your member ship on this forum. It its always the same. REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT. SPAM SPAM SPAM.
Where´s this forums spam filter?
_____________________________
Spammity spaaaam oh wonderful spaaaam!
C. Vega -> [Deleted] (Nov. 1 2012 0:58:19)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 1 2012 1:05:53
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Nov. 1 2012 1:06:00)
quote:
The Reyes plan on Luth.org is a very well drawn plan based on the wrong guitar. It has a 11mm setup at the bridge and because of that, it cannot be considered a flamenco guitar
Please calm down, Anders, as I've already mentioned that I drew the plan exactly with the original guitar measurement; with a high saddle and thick fingerboard, so that when the finger board pulled up a little with age, there would be enough room to lower the saddle at the prescribed height.
Also, the guys at www.Luth.org drew a computer scale of the plan which didn't allow them to slant the fingerboard into the box as it was done originally.
But I believe this is the way that Sr. Reyes planned the saddle height on this particular guitar. It impressed me as being a planned ideal for adjustments as needed. And, as it was, the saddle was lowered just right, about 8-9 mm height, as it grew with age. You might take this into consideration, as Reyes used it for this particular 2003 model.
Tom Blackshear -> RE: fine tuning a top (Nov. 1 2012 1:20:47)
quote:
ORIGINAL: C. Vega
He's been doing the same thing over on the Acoustic Guitar forum for about as long as, if not even longer than, he's been doing it here. Nothing new since day one. Just the same tired old song and dance routine. It really gets old.
Yawn.
Hey Charles, you are a guitar maker of some renowned, why don't you add some of your techniques to this discussion instead of providing fodder for my posts:-)
It would be more interesting if you bothered to enlighten us with some added knowledge about how to improve tone and top tension. We are waiting....
Or is it that you are a member of a secret society of builders who believe secrets should remain secret?
