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estebanana -> RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread (Sep. 14 2014 5:26:12)
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quote:
It always strikes me as strange that there is so much fuss over violin varnishes, because the varnish is so thin compared to the wood and furthermore much of the varnish is worn off those great old violins anyway. Okay, the varnish looks nice; that effect should be easy to duplicate. But researching the varnish to try to capture the sound is to me barking up the wrong tree.
Ethan, and anyone interested in varnish talk,
This is not what most people are doing. The research on violin varnish is due to the fact that the pine resin-cooked oil varnishes that are intact dating from 300 years ago are still very resilient to darkening and structural failure. While more modern varnishes have discoloration issues and can fail structurally over time. Also the colors and dichroic effects on the older violins can be achieved by using these older varnish recipes.
Mainly violin makers today are looking for a Dichroic varnish that has layers of different colors that shine together and also create two or three colors on the wood. This can be done by layering colored varnishes over colored grounds and is an important part of making violins that are in character with older classical Italian work.
That said, in short, guitars and violins have different needs and reactions to varnishing. Almost all competent violin makers will say the sound is created by the structure of the violin, but there is also a big factor in how the varnish and it's composition modifies and filters the sound. The varnish on a violin does have an effect on sound, and it's been well documented by before and after sound tests with and with and without varnish. Varnish has a damping effect, not much but enough to moderate the sound a bit. The question is not does varnish really shape the sound, but how does to change the sound in a subtle way? Mainly too much varnish is bad because it dampens too much, but some varnish does help tame certain parts of overtone series and emphasize others.
I have used varnish shellac and lacquer on guitars and I think each finish has a slightly different character in how it effects the high partials, but not so much that it is a really big deal. Of the three ways I've done finishing I heard the spar varnished guitars as having more effect on the overtones, at least in the beginning before the varnish hardened over several months or years. But I don't think it's big deal on guitars as long as the finish is not excessively thick.
Violins and guitars are really different systems in how the string is activated and while the logic of how one works seems like it might fit the other, lots of it does not directly translate. What might make a guitar go well might not work for a violin. They are just different structures, but since they are made of wood there is some connection.
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But all this is a separate conversation. It's quite off topic to sharing guitar pictures. It's also difficult to talk about violin varnish because there is so much speculation by nonmakers that gets mixed up with actual known knowledge by vetted investigators who have published good research on the subject. In the last five to ten years state of the art optical scanning and chemical analysis have been used to break down the components in violin varnish on period instruments and the information is out there to read. There are also several really good modern varnish makers creating cooked pine resin-oil varnishes that are on par with classic Italian varnish. So it's difficult to have a conversation on this if everyone is not on the same page in regards to what the current common knowledge is. It becomes less a conversation than a frustration of correcting previously held beliefs and looking like a smarty pants know it all. But the information about varnish is pretty much out there in the violin forums for free. I've been following the discussions of the best of the best people in varnish research for about five years now. A couple of days of reading the many varnish conversations on Maestronet and other forums and downloading the supplemental PDF files about varnish making and history would give a good solid background in the issues.
I do think it is beyond the topic and scope of this particular guitar show and tell thread, which I hope does not turn into morass of misinformation and gross speculation.
S.
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