RE: Foot tapping while playing (Full Version)

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dararith -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Sep. 20 2012 1:30:07)

quote:

Even when you refer to palmas, I suppose tapping the foot like in numbers *1,2*4,5*7,8*10,11 or 12**3**6**9** (basically medio palmas but presented in twelve)
when playing bulerias helps to keep the rhythm and is acceptable method in comparison to counting to twelve and playing along it?


I think that is acceptable. The goal is to 'feel' the drive and stay in compas, and the foot CAN help you do that. If your compas isn't strong to begin with, I say, be careful with the foot tapping...it can throw you off. You'll tap to a rhythm with a 120 bpm tempo and then at certain parts you accidentally skip a beat, making it feel like 135 bpm, etc.

One good reason why guitarists should learn palmas is to help solidify and deepen their understanding of compas so that you can feel the PULSE that is moving the music along. Tapping the foot would come naturally so that you don't LOSE that compas....there MAY be musical elements to it (like that Almoraima video of Paco shown above, he makes the foot tapping part of his music), but some may not want to hear the foot tap at all (i.e. in a flamenco dance performance, perhaps).

The traditional accents in a bulerias is 12, 3, 6, 8, 10...but then I tap my foot in 2's: 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. Why on earth would I do that???

1) It's an even pulse. Easier to stay in compas (i could even do 1,3,5,7,9,11...which I don't do...but if it helps me stay in beat, why not?)

2) I'm fully aware that one of the 'accents' is on beat 3, but my foot is 'up' when this happens (since I'm tapping beats 2 and 4). Over time this will help me lock in the groove and be comfortable with musical accents that's NOT on the beat...play with the rhythm, not on the groove, etc.

For all intents an purposes, I think reason 1) is my favorite.

The way I tap my foot to a bulerias is actually in 2's, but I started to naturally step my foot down harder on 12's and 6's (haha, more like for a jaleo). Now it is tapping in two, but has a waltz/pulse feel of 3's...how? Because of this:

12--2--4--6--8--10
12--X---X--6--X--X

The second pattern, if I were to look at it with the number and the X's, is in threes. And it's also in 6's, but I'm just tapping the beats in between.

Blah! Hopefully that wasn't confusing. I just wanted to make a point that I feel it's important to feel the pulse and drive of the compas and tap your foot in a way that helps you stay in that compas...even if it means doing something odd like tapping beats 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 ,11.



tele -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Dec. 29 2012 12:01:45)

Any tips on practicing tangos foot tapping? It's tapping 1 and 3, right?



Flamencito -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Dec. 29 2012 15:12:34)

Intesting topic for me...

My main objective related to studying is still to get the compas through my bones as well.

I have some questions related to this topic, for which it could be great to get some guidelines.

Which are the most typical moments for chord changes for solea por bulerias?
Which are the most typical/easy chords to get the proper harmony for solea por bulerias?

What is the most obvious difference between solea por bulerias & bulerias por solea?

Which are the most typical moments for chord changes for bulerias al golpe?
Which are the most typical alternative moments for chord changes for bulerias al golpe?

I wonder if my questions make sense and if there are people out here who can help me in clearifying these questions.

Cheers

[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Dec. 29 2012 18:41:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flamencito

Intesting topic for me...

My main objective related to studying is still to get the compas through my bones as well.

I have some questions related to this topic, for which it could be great to get some guidelines.

Which are the most typical moments for chord changes for solea por bulerias?
Which are the most typical/easy chords to get the proper harmony for solea por bulerias?

What is the most obvious difference between solea por bulerias & bulerias por solea?

Which are the most typical moments for chord changes for bulerias al golpe?
Which are the most typical alternative moments for chord changes for bulerias al golpe?

I wonder if my questions make sense and if there are people out here who can help me in clearifying these questions.

Cheers

[:D]

Bulerias changes most typical on 3 or 10. Lesser but common are 12 and 6....after which anything can go pretty much.

Solea por buleria and buleria por solea are interchangeable terms these days, they refer to the same thing. IN the old days the 3 melodies called "buleria por solea" or "buleria pa escuchar" or "buleria al golpe" all were the same song form. Nowadays more mixing is done with cante styles and solea de jerez gets thrown in the mix. Lots in the archives on this but check Norman's site for specifics of the melodies.


Chord changes for cante por solea apply the same as described for buleria above. It's better to think actually that buleria is derived from solea hence the chord moves are the same.

For very very slow solea for DANCE...it is often we change chords on 1,4,7, 10 which invokes actually a half time feel of buleria...the type where chords are only changing on 12, 6.



Flamencito -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Dec. 29 2012 19:14:38)

Thanks a lot for answering my questionis Ricardo [:)]

quote:

Bulerias changes most typical on 3 or 10. Lesser but common are 12 and 6....after which anything can go pretty much.


When practicing over doctor compas with a (slow downed) palo for 'solea por bulerias' i notice i can implement those chord changes on 3 and 10. For the rest of the accents i sometimes put them on 3,6,8,10,12 and sometimes put them on 3,7,8,10,12 while i try to remain an 'upbeat flow' during the notes that have no accent.

Since i try to play the upbeat with an index-upstroke most of the time, it provides me some space to try and put golpes on 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11 where it seems to suite in the flow.

If you can follow this description.. do you think this is 'a way' to get familiar with the compas por bulerias? If not.. which aspect of my description can be considered 'wrong'in my interpretation?

One thing that (also) is not really not clear to me is the way of playing the chord changes when playing the 1,2,4,5 rhythm.. Since there is no accent on 3 there, should the first sound of the new chord ring on the following 'upbeat'?



Flamencito -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 2 2013 11:30:21)

Advertising my question from above....[;)]



tele -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 2 2013 12:36:41)

I think it's off topic



Ricardo -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 2 2013 20:03:28)

quote:

One thing that (also) is not really not clear to me is the way of playing the chord changes when playing the 1,2,4,5 rhythm.. Since there is no accent on 3 there, should the first sound of the new chord ring on the following 'upbeat'?


You sound properly confused. Time for one on one lessons before you start inventing your own compas.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 3 2013 0:50:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Is there a method to see which beat is played at what time when watching performance like this for example? Is there a "rule" when the golpe is done for example?:


I am having hard time imagining compas even with this traditional kind of playing...

I also wonder when I use flamenco master that why the accents are different in bulerias(one of them in FM) and alegrias when compared to soleares, even when they should have accents on the same beats?

They are definitely counting. Humberto calls this the "Chak-chak" method of counting -- they are dividing it into threes and accenting the 1 and the 2 (if you want to think about it that way, there are certainly other ways to subdivide the rhythm as well).



Flamencito -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 3 2013 14:54:05)

quote:

You sound properly confused. Time for one on one lessons before you start inventing your own compas.


Indeed, I am properly confused. That's why i give a shot at asking a question here, before inventing my own compas.

Unfortunately I will have to wait till the end of the month for my one-on-one lessons. At the moment my budget is too low to have lessons regularly. But i understand the point you make.

@Tele, Sorry for hijacking your thread.. I thought it was related enough to the discussion and did not want to start a new thread for it...



tele -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 3 2013 16:43:33)

Just to get it straight:
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/compas/tangos120.html

I find it much more easy to follow than solea compas.

Also I thought the foot tapping along it on 1 and 3 would be difficult but it really isn't.

On the matter of tempo: How often does the tempo vary in flamenco by small amounts(such as from 120 to 140)? Or is it done at all? For example intro in 20 BPM less...



Ricardo -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jan. 3 2013 20:55:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Just to get it straight:
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/compas/tangos120.html

I find it much more easy to follow than solea compas.

Also I thought the foot tapping along it on 1 and 3 would be difficult but it really isn't.

On the matter of tempo: How often does the tempo vary in flamenco by small amounts(such as from 120 to 140)? Or is it done at all? For example intro in 20 BPM less...



Tempo fluctuation depends on the taste and situation. For beginner level purposes it's best to understand it is ALWAYS a deliberate change be it for cante or baile, most often guitar solos are not going to move a hair. Tempo flux of 20 bpm is HUGE by the way. When playing for baile tempo changes are done fast and dramatically because we are actually changing song forms...Example tientos->tangos-> RUmba.



tele -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jun. 9 2013 11:05:15)

Any tips on how to learn to tap the five accents of twelve beat cycles? It's quite difficult for me...



el carbonero -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jun. 9 2013 12:30:58)

quote:

Any tips on how to learn to tap the five accents of twelve beat cycles? It's quite difficult for me...


play for dance,petenera,alegrias,soleares,guajira etc,month after month ,and you will go to tap the foot like this naturally.without think or effort.

for me it's the case.

i remember before i played for dance i can't tap the accents naturally.
And now i dont think at this thing,but my foot tap this .

For the bulerias de jerez ,i never tap with the 5 accents .



Erik van Goch -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jun. 9 2013 12:54:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Any tips on how to learn to tap the five accents of twelve beat cycles? It's quite difficult for me...


Not really, other then practice practice practice.... in various situations.


In general when i try to learn/improve elements of my playing i try to create a situation where i can fully concentrate on the subject. One way of doing that is to reduce all things that distracts my mind. It is more easy to tap when the music is played by a record then when you also have to play the notes yourself so play a lot of music while adding tapping. Another option is to play the music in your mind only, not moving a finger but just adding the tapping. Obviously you should select material that you understand well.

Unfortunately every new situation demands lot's of (new) practice and to be able to play and tap the music simultaneously simply demands a lot of practice. Again, select material that fits your level and then practice it bit by bit. It doesn't hurt to repeat a small phrase of just a couple of notes/beats over and over again just to get it in your system, linking and drilling music/technique and tapping. The drilling part i picked up when accompanying dancing classes (they drill small fragments all the time, over and over again).

I should do it more myself actually, because i still have trouble combining tapping/playing myself. When i play/analyze/study music on a record (or in my head) i tend to tap with my fingers rather then with my foot. As a result i'm a better finger tapper then i'm a foot tapper. As soon as my fingers are needed for actual playing i might get lost at some parts as far as tapping is concerned. Like i said, every new situation demands lot's of (new) practice and to be able to play and tap the music simultaneously one really has to drill that as well, studying it in small, easy to handle bits and pieces, slowly working your way up.

Also (as i stated before) many 12 beat melodies have alternative pulses then 12-3-6-8-10 so for me there is not such a thing as "the 5 accents of 12 beat cycles". In bulerias for instance most of the time i think in chains of 6 beats. The accent is always on the 1st beat of the chain witch might either have a 2 or a 3 beat pulse.

3 beat pulse: *--*-- (like 12--3-- but also 6--9--)
2 beat pulse: *-*-*-(like 6-8-10 but also 12-2-4)

if you link them in that order you get : *--*--,*-*-*- (12-3-,6-8-10) resulting in your 5 beasts. But many melodies choose to fallow a different pulse, sticking to a 3 beat or a 2 beat pulse over a longer period of time (*--*--,*--*-- vs *-*-*-,*-*-*-).... then there is still a 12 beat system (or if you like a 2x6 beat system, enabling the famous so called half (6 beats only) compasses) but no trace anymore of what you call "the 5 beats of" because in those situations there are 4 or 6 main beats. It's the variation that makes it difficult and easy at the same time (once you are able to combine them without thinking).



machopicasso -> RE: Foot tapping while playing (Jun. 10 2013 10:52:43)

quote:

Any tips on how to learn to tap the five accents of twelve beat cycles? It's quite difficult for me...


Here's a suggestion (not that it'll be easy).

Take a falseta which 1) you haven't learned how to play and 2) hear in 12s.

Learn the falseta gradually, using Ricardo's method of accenting every beat. (He posted a video of this a while back using a falseta from Tomatito).

Once you're comfortable playing the falseta and tapping every beat, start omitting beats until you get the pattern you're after.



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