Nut & Body Width (Full Version)

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Kalo -> Nut & Body Width (Jul. 24 2012 23:42:10)

Hi Guys,

I have a simple quesiton regarding nut width and body width!

Question #1: Forgive me if this an amature question, but, why are so many flamenco guitars with 52 mm nut? Classical guitar is 50mm

Question #2: Is Blanca body width a litter thinner then negra?

Thanks

Kalo



C. Vega -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 0:06:45)

There are no standards for these or any others dimensions. Each maker uses different dimensions and may often change them.
I'll use two very good blancas that I own as examples, a 1963 Jose Ramirez and a signed 1973 Manuel Contreras.
The Ramirez has a 51mm nut and the Contreras has a 50mm nut. I've seen numerous older Ramirez guitars, both classical and flamenco, with 54mm nuts. Contreras classicals typically have wider nuts as well. 52mm nuts have become something of a "standard" these days, especially on production (factory) guitars but it's by no means universal.
By "body width" I'm assuming that you're referring to the depth of the body.
My Ramirez measures 100mm deep at the tailblock and tapers to 93mm at the neck. The measurements of the Contreras are 89mm and 85mm respectively, shallower and with less taper than the Ramirez.
The Ramirez has a 656mm scale length and the Contreras is 658mm.
The string spread at the bridge on both guitars is just over 52mm.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 0:10:24)

Hi C. Vega,

Thank you for your reply!

I guess my TWO question: Why aren't there more flamenco guitars with a 50mm nut.

And, if Blanca & Negra's are both the same width in body.

Thanks!

Kalo



C. Vega -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 0:16:39)

If you have a guitar made you can specify any nut width you want, within reason.

Again, no standardization of depth for negras vs. blancas either. Some makers use the same measurements for both, others may make their negras a little deeper.



keith -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 0:43:34)

kalo--as c.vega stated there is variation in nut width but it does seem that 650mm and 52mm are the typical measurements for most factory guitars and off the rack models. some companies are now making 640mm and less guitars with nuts less than 52mm.

is your question a follow up from your experience with the "conde" model? you might want to try a crossover to see if a narrow nut works for you--not saying buy it but get a feel. another option is a 3/4 guitar--again to see if it works for you.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 0:55:49)

Thanks C. Vega

quote:

Again, no standardization of depth for negras vs. blancas either. Some makers use the same measurements for both, others may make their negras a little deeper.


Oh, okay, I get what you are saying. For some reason I assumed a Negra body was a little wider in width size then a blanca. Okay, thanks for clarifying...


quote:

kalo--as c.vega stated there is variation in nut width but it does seem that 650mm and 52mm are the typical measurements for most factory guitars and off the rack models. some companies are now making 640mm and less guitars with nuts less than 52mm.


Hey Keith! Okay, I was just curious as to why that is the standard in nut width, but, I guess it just the default standard!

quote:

is your question a follow up from your experience with the "conde" model? you might want to try a crossover to see if a narrow nut works for you--not saying buy it but get a feel. another option is a 3/4 guitar--again to see if it works for you.


Well, I sent the Orange Navarro Conde back [;)] However, I am asking all these questions because one day I probably will want to have a flamenco guitar built for me. I am seriously thinking of a 50 to 51 nut. Right now my Takamine is 50 mm nut and it seems to be a good width for me.

I would love to try a 640 mm scale, however, I am a little hesitant to try because most of the times I am using a capo.

There aren't too many guitars that have a 640 mm scale that I can try. One thing that I saw on eBay is someone selling a Fransico Navarro CLASSICAL guitar with a 50 mm nut and 640 scale.

I have NEVER seen nor knew that he made his classical guitars that way. I researched it and found out he makes the classical guitar in 650mm 52mm and 640 mm, 50 mm. I wish he would also give an option like that for his Flamenco Guitars.

Though now that I the Navarro Conde didn't work out I am SO hesitant in trying something else.

I guess, I will just play the good ol takamine cutaway until I can have a guitar built for me.

Thanks for the replies!

Kalo



ChiyoDad -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 5:09:21)

From my experience, the standard nut width for most flamenco and classical guitars is 52mm. My negra has a nut width of 54mm.

If there's a Guitar Center near you, why not try out the "crossover" Cordoba GK Studio? Though the scale is the standard 650mm, it has a nut width of 50mm and a shallower body like a flamenco. The ones I played were nice and it will probably have a brighter and more percussive sound than your Takamine.



It's also available as a negra.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Stephen Eden -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 9:42:56)

There are no rules!

I would say that a 52mm nut has become the de facto standard. I make pretty much all of my guitars with a 52m nut be it classical or flamenco. I have made maybe 3 or 4 guitars with a thinner neck 49-50mm and none thicker.

Body depth is set by the guitar. It can have a pretty big effect on the sound so this is some that is taken into consideration when building. I use one depth for classical and another for flamenco but the same for blanca and negras.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 13:58:44)

quote:

From my experience, the standard nut width for most flamenco and classical guitars is 52mm. My negra has a nut width of 54mm.

If there's a Guitar Center near you, why not try out the "crossover" Cordoba GK Studio? Though the scale is the standard 650mm, it has a nut width of 50mm and a shallower body like a flamenco. The ones I played were nice and it will probably have a brighter and more percussive sound than your Takamine.


Hi ChiyoDad,

Maybe, I'll check out this guitar. I've heard some bad things about it! I guess it's a crapshoot. Out of some many that are made, hopefully, I'll be lucky enough to try a GOOD model. Though, I do know how 50 mm nut feels and 650 nut because my Takamine has the same specs. The bad thing is it is soooo bassy sounding and muddy...

quote:

There are no rules!

I would say that a 52mm nut has become the de facto standard. I make pretty much all of my guitars with a 52m nut be it classical or flamenco. I have made maybe 3 or 4 guitars with a thinner neck 49-50mm and none thicker.

Body depth is set by the guitar. It can have a pretty big effect on the sound so this is some that is taken into consideration when building. I use one depth for classical and another for flamenco but the same for blanca and negras.


Hi SEden,

Thanks for the clarification. As stated it looks like 50mm feel awesome! I do like the way body of blanca's! Most that I have tried have been a little bit thinner width wise! Whether I have a negra or blana built, I think I would request a blanca style (width wise) of a traditional blanca..

Thanks,

Kalo



ralexander -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 15:08:59)

Hey Kalo - I owned a Jesus Bellido blanca a while back with a 50mm nut, which I purchased because I was having some hand issues. I personally think the more important issue is neck profile. This guitar with the 50mm nut had a rather beefy profile, and therefore was more difficult to play than some of the 52mm+ guitars I had tried. A frustrating and expensive lesson [:@]

Here's a post from Stephen Faulk's old blog page that you might find interesting:

http://hieronymusguitaricus.blogspot.ca/2011/02/next-im-going-to-talk-about-flat-neck.html



Morante -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 15:16:35)

"This guitar with the 50mm nut had a rather beefy profile, and therefore was more difficult to play than some of the 52mm+ guitars I had tried. A frustrating and expensive lesson"

Easy to change: sandpaper.



ralexander -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 15:25:21)

Yeah, but I wasn't about to take sandpaper to a $3k+ guitar - come on, now [8|]



Morante -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 15:52:53)

Then take it to somebody who can: I have just taken 2 or 3mm off a Gibson[;)]



rogeliocan -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 16:13:58)

quote:

This guitar with the 50mm nut had a rather beefy profile,


I have both a 50 and 52 and change from one to the other without even noticing. My 50 is not beefy, so don't think that 50mm automatically = thick neck. I had my 52 made and told the luthier what profile I wanted for the neck.



XXX -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 16:44:24)

I have small hands but despite that a thicker neck is much easier to play for me. The difference is not big. It is HUGE. 50 or 52 is less important IMO, but on certain chords it can make a difference (i use this chord 300032 to test that), whereas the thickness of the neck has a greater effect on the overall "grip". Hence i have taken my guitar to a luthier to thicken the neck. Probably the next best thing to having a guitar built for you. Searching for the right guitar out there is the worst option IMO. Not only it costs money (buy & resell) but huge amounts of time.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 17:24:44)

Hi All,

I totally understand that neck profile is everything..

The Takamine is nice!!! The neck is not flat, but, it is comfortable...

I don't know if flat is necessarly cool for my hands.

For me it has no support in the back..

This WHOLE Conde Navarro stuff really through me for a loop!!!!

I COULD NOT PLAY IT and I was able to play my Student a year ago...

Could it be that Navarro make duds at time?

I know he doesn't mass produce like factory guitars, but, stilll he has a quota to meet and his son does make these Student ones...

I am obessed about this now because I am just trying to find the right guitar for me...I am doing lots of research...

Thanks for all the great advise and information...

Kalo



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 18:04:09)

Okay, just got done reading Stephen's blog and I must say I AGREE!!!

Way to many guitars out there with flat neck syndrome...


Even when I was playing electric guitar, I HATED those flat neck Ibanez guitars...

I prefered a gibson neck which are like a "d" shape that Stephen is talking about..

Does anyone currently own a Fransico Navarro?

Does it seem like he makes them a little flatter????

Again, I am sure the fact that the guitar couldn't be dropped any lower was a problem...

The luthier had relayed to me that the bone couldn't come down any further because there was no room in the slot..

I wonder if the neck was lower than the bridge....Something was off!

Thanks,

Kalo



ralexander -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 18:08:34)

Morante - I didn't say I wasn't capable of sanding a guitar neck, in fact I've done it in the past with cheaper electric guitars. However, I would never modify a handmade guitar in that way unless I was already totally in love with it and just trying to make it perfect.

rogeliocan - I wasn't trying to imply that a 50mm nut width automatically meant the profile would be thicker, I was just saying that neck profile is an important consideration in overall playability.

Deniz - I agree, and I have wasted too much money and time over the years "searching" for guitars - it can be quite difficult when you have a small selection available locally, which is a common problem. I have never heard of adding material to a neck - how is that done?

Kalo - best of luck in your search!!



XXX -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 18:22:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander
I have never heard of adding material to a neck - how is that done?


I have no idea. But it is, unexpectedly, invisible. The new finish perfectly matches the old one. I should add, not only its thicker, but also more "D" shaped than before.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 25 2012 18:27:48)

LOL, thanks ralexander...

I never thought this was going to be such a difficult process..

Electric guitars are so much easier to buy and do a set up on....

I already know the neck I like on them...

It sucks with Flamenco guitar cause you go to a GC and or Sam Ash and they have the cordoba's or one selection of yamaha!

The problem there is how is one get a good feel on neck and playability when all of them have a high set up and most have that flat neck syndrome [:o]

Ugh, I am so scared to even purchase from any of those shops because I've heard horror stories.....

Well, the search continues...

Thanks

Kalo



HolyEvil -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 26 2012 7:20:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalo

As stated it looks like 50mm feel awesome! I do like the way body of blanca's! Most that I have tried have been a little bit thinner width wise! Whether I have a negra or blana built, I think I would request a blanca style (width wise) of a traditional blanca..

Kalo


you really should get one built for you, with 50mm nut and 650 scale.
and you can then specify a thinner body ala blanca..
Better get something playable than something with a beautiful sound but you can't play. If you get one made, then its's going to have a good sound and good playability.



Kalo -> RE: Nut & Body Width (Jul. 26 2012 14:25:02)

quote:

you really should get one built for you, with 50mm nut and 650 scale.
and you can then specify a thinner body ala blanca..
Better get something playable than something with a beautiful sound but you can't play. If you get one made, then its's going to have a good sound and good playability.


Yes, great advise holyevil. This is what I plan to do! Hopefully, I will be getting a full time job soon and for sure will get one built..

Kalo



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