So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Full Version)

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a_arnold -> So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 18 2012 13:30:19)

Sherry Brenner of Chicago sold a lot of guitars in the 60's and 70's in the US. They were the primary (sole?) outlet in the US for Ramirez production. Here's the question: did Ramirez and other luthiers send their second-best guitars to be sold in the US on the theory that Americans wouldn't know the difference -- or did they send their best in hopes of impressing a bigger market? Did Sherry Brenner hand-select the guitars they sold? Or did they just take whatever Ramirez and others sent them?

I'm thinking of buying another Ramirez, and I am finding that many of them in the US have a Sherry-Brenner label added to the Ramirez label, so if anyone has any actual knowledge about the quality of their imports compared to domestic Spanish instruments (as opposed to a guess) I'd REALLY like to hear it.

Okay, before someone jumps on this opportunity to tell me I should trust my ear rather than rely on labels -- at this stage I'm trying to decide what guitars I should pay to get shipped to me so I CAN try them. Given that these guitars are scattered all over, shipping usually costs less than the drive, so if I can filter the guitars before I pay to have them shipped, I might save some bucks.

Thanks,
Tony Arnold



Ricardo -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 18 2012 16:22:27)

I heard a rumor they were not even made by ramirez but japanese copies or something? can't remember but my back of mind feeling was to avoid guitars with that label for some reason. Or Ramirez guitars with NO label also.



jshelton5040 -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 18 2012 18:11:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

I'm thinking of buying another Ramirez, and I am finding that many of them in the US have a Sherry-Brenner label added to the Ramirez label,


If I recall correctly that Sherry-Brenner label was conveniently placed over the quality mark (1a, 2a, etc.) on the Ramirez label. I had a friend Spain buy and ship me a Ramirez 1A in the early 70's for way less than the price Sherry-Brener was charging. It was a terrible guitar not worth the $350 it cost me.



estebanana -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 18 2012 18:27:04)

The big faux pas was he had guitars made and put a label in them that read Marcelino Barbero. They were not made by Barbero hijo. The guitars were probably Japanese, some of them decent, but not authored as advertised. That was working fast and loose with the truth, no?

Do a google search on Marcelino Barbero Guitar- You'll get plenty of information. I have seen a few of these and they run the gamut from crappy to playable to not bad at all.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 18 2012 23:55:59)

Sherry's Ramirez guitars with the authentic Ramirez labels were indeed made by Ramirez. Look at Ramirez's web page to learn about their labels. From the '60s onward 1a's had pale blue borders on the labels, 2a's were red or gold bordered.

The distinction between 1a and 2a models was largely cosmetic. I played some 2a's that I liked better than most 1a's, but remember, you might not like the same guitar I do.

Sherry pasted little gold "Segovia Model" labels over the 1a or 2a quality designation written on the Ramirez labels. This pissed off Jose Ramirez III to the extent that he fired Sherry as his U.S. distributor.

Once, after Ramirez fired Sherry, I mentioned Sherry's name to him. That ended the conversation. I had to go back two days later to finish picking and buying guitars.

Over a period of a few years I bought nearly two dozen 1a cedar/rosewood classicals at the shop in Concepcion Jeronima 2 in Madrid from Jose III himself. He tried to have 6 available to pick from at all times. Some I liked, some I didn't.

I could sell a 1a classical in the USA for a good deal less than Sherry did, and still make enough profit on two or three guitars to finance a trip to Spain. Jose III knew what I was doing, and didn't mind undercutting Sherry at all.

Sherry got into a variety of legal trouble over mislabeling non-Ramirez guitars. Putting a "Made in Spain" label in a Japanese guitar is against the law.

My '67 1a Ramirez blanca was bought new from Locker in Philadelphia. It doesn't have a defaced label. It's a great guitar. I like my '82 Arcangel Fernandez blanca better, but the Ramirez gets played regularly.

RNJ



RTC -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 1:43:07)

Richard:
Your post should clear up a lot of rumors, thanks for posting.



aarongreen -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 2:21:33)

I have a 1967 Ramirez (IM, Ignazio Rozas initialed) for sale that is classic and mint in every way. It's a fantastic Ramirez, classic Ramirez sound but with great clarity and separation. It has the Segovia model sticker below the label, so it passed though Casa Sherry Brenner. It's a bs designation, there never was a Segovia model that was made by Ramirez in those days. However it's also a phenomenally good guitar so I would consider the fact that it was handled by Sherry Brenner as a non issue.

Marcelino Barbero though is another matter. The one's I've seen have been Ramirez knockoffs, which has nothing to do with Barbero guitars, either senior or junior. It's not at all a new thing though, there are plenty of fiddles out there with Italian sounding names of luthiers who never existed. Giuseppe Spumoni was Al Carruth's umbrella term for these instruments.



keith -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 2:25:28)

to add to richard's and aaron's posts, there is more to jim sherry than just a tenacious sticker on a ramirez classical guitar (i do not think any flamenco guitars were in the mix). jim sherry gave us two "spanish" guitar models named after some characters who worked at the hot dog factory down the street from his store--ok maybe they were not hot dog workers but the names of the guitars--garcia and hernandis-- were made up and not living or deceased luthiers. in many ways jim sherry was the role model for guitar salon international and the famous antonio loriente guitars. the guitars it turned out were not made in spain but in japan. no big deal i guess but it was another sherry trick. those guitars gave us the infamous "spanish pine" and rosettes made in persia (interestingly, persia became iran in the 1930's so either those rosettes were super old or old jim sherry cut a deal with the ayatollah in the 1980's). then there was little baby barbero. sherry introduced a line of guitars called marcelino barbero designed to capitalize on marcelo barbero's fame. funny thing, marcelo barbero jr. was making guitars and did not cotton to jim's idea.

having lived in chicago for many years i managed a couple of treks to see the wizard of odd who has a shop across the street from "the bean". on one occasion sir sherry tried to convince me that the kurasawa flamenco guitar he was trying to unload for $7K was built by said luthier who was an apprentice of jose ramirez 3. funny thing, ramirez in his book did not list a kurasawa as a ramirez employee--but he did write about his dislike of the japanese and their quest to get his secrets. on another occasion good old jim told me how the world was going to hell in a handbasket because the kids were spending their guitar lesson money on drugs and the parents were spending their guitar purchasing money on gambling.

so where does that leave us? as richard and aaron said, the ramirez guitars were real and many quite good. the japanese made guitars named after guys working at the hot dog factory were pretty good student guitars and buying one for a used student price should be ok--just do not fall for the hokum frequently associated with them. as to any other guitar, especially one in his store--well i guess one could do worse and become mangored.

as a post note--the above is what we know from the lips and mind of jim sherry. below is second hand information that has a very flamenco and sabicas twist to it. i posted this at acguitar about 1.5 years ago.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item1c19d7f15a&item=120692666714&nma=true&pt=Guitar&rt=nc&si=ua73NotvfEx4Pp%252Bt4kv8X7Wgy%252FE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc



jshelton5040 -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 14:07:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith
jim sherry gave us two "spanish" guitar models named after some characters who worked at the hot dog factory down the street from his store--ok maybe they were not hot dog workers but the names of the guitars--garcia and hernandis-- were made up and not living or deceased luthiers. in many ways jim sherry was the role model for guitar salon international and the famous antonio loriente guitars. the guitars it turned out were not made in spain but in japan.

Along with Hernandis, Garcia and Marcellino Barbero there was also Antonio Lorca. The Lorca's I've seen were pretty nice guitars very comparable to the Ramirez classics built at that time.



n85ae -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 14:10:48)

I worked 4 blocks from his shop for about 8 years. He's a very nice guy to chat with, but I would not buy a guitar there ... :)

Unless money does not matter to you, in which case ...

Regards,
Jeff



keith -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 14:25:25)

john--ok, another one added to the list. i forgot how many hotdog worker names he lifted.

jeff--yeah, he is an intereting character and with many bizarro stories. i am still in amazement that he can afford a shop on michigan ave. across from millenium park. the shop is small but it is michigan ave. (for those who do not know chicago, michigan ave. is chicago's rodeo drive or new york city's 5th ave.



n85ae -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 14:32:07)

No kidding, he'd need to sell a few hundred guitars a month to pay the
bills I would think ... How he pays for it is a mystery to me ...

Regards,
Jeff



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 19:24:17)

I can't say anything about the American imports but in that period of time the first ones exported to the Netherlands were of very high quality. After hearing a superb Jose Ramirez Classical Guitar my father decided to order one himself. The 1962 Classical Jose Ramirez he received by mail happened to be of the finest quality. As a result more and more people became interested to buy one and soon it became the Steinway of the Classical guitars. My father bought a couple of more for his students but stopped promoting them when growing demands started to inflict the quality. The early ones he build according to the guidelines of Manuel Contreras, the later ones he altered to his own ideas, which were quite crap. So just like wine Ramirez Classical guitar comes in good years and in bad years. The early 60's models are the most wanted and way better then the ones he build a couple of years later. As far as the Classical Guitar is involved you want to buy yourself a Contreras Guitar build by Jose Ramirez. The only flamenco guitar player i know that plays this model is Manolo Sanlucar (tauromagia).

The 70's might not be recommended for his classical guitars but he did build himself some excellent Flamenco guitars in that period. One of them was offered as a rarity for public sale in the Netherlands in 1978 (a brand new Ramirez 1A Flamenco guitar). When nobody showed interest it was down prized to 1K and became the very first flamenco guitar in our collection. They became quite popular along professional flamenco players in the Netherlands when they were still affordable. At precent day they have become rare and quite expensive. My 1978 Ramirez 1A Flamenco guitar is one of the finest instruments i've ever played and i wouldn't trade it for any other guitar.

So for a 1A Ramirez Flamenco Guitar the (late?) 70's seems to be an excellent period to start. I have no knowledge about the quality of other periods (older or younger) but precent day guitars of Jose Ramirez don't seem to impress me .



estebanana -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 20:17:57)

Erik, they were asking about an American importer of Ramirez named Brenner, but your information on Ramirez in Holland is interesting.

On Brenner, I think what he did with Ramirez guitars was not as bad as what he did with other labels. At least Ramirez himself pulled the plug on supplying him any more, as Richard points out. I think the Marcelino copies were the worst offense. Marcelino was alive and Brenner basically stole his identity and used the cache' and importance of the Barbero name.

As far as dissing the Hernandis and Garcia labels, well those are common sir names and with no first name they can make hot dogs or guitars. And many of those guitars were not bad players. Two weeks ago when I posted a video about the Garcia I repaired, only two people got that it was a plywood top.

He played a game with Ramirez that Ramirez was capable of checking, but he really did Marcelino an injustice. Just my opinion.



C. Vega -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 21:03:49)

The younger Barbero never used the name "Marcelino". On his own instruments, including those with the Arcangel Fernandez shop labels, he used the name Marcelo Barbero, Hijo. "Marcelino Barbero" was just another fictitious Sherry name but it was close enough to the real thing to upset more than a few people.
You can also add "Francisco Ramirez" to the Sherry roster of phony luthier names.
Before the powers that be forced Sherry to divulge the actual country of origin of his guitars, his Hernandis and Garcia guitars were labeled "Antonio Hernandis" and "Federico Garcia" and they also said "Madrid" on the labels. The later big labels that listed the materials used and their supposed places of origin (most were lies like "Spanish pine" tops and rosettes from "Persia") did show the final point of assembly as Japan.
A friend of mine once called Sherry about one of his "Barbero" guitars and Sherry told him that it was made from Spanish components assembled in Japan.
Nice try, Jimbo.

Erik,
You seem to have your facts confused. Manuel Contreras learned the craft of guitar making from Jose Ramirez, not the other way around. Contreras worked for Ramirez from 1959 until 1962 when he opened his own shop. While working in the Ramirez shop Contreras, like all the other workers, built instruments to Ramirez designs and specifications. There was no place in the Ramirez plan for individual interpretation. The guitars were all built exactly the same way and, yes, some can be quite good and others less so. Ramirez had the reputation of being a stern taskmaster who insisted on things being done his way.
The guitars were (and still are) all built by a team of people and not built entirely from start to finish by individual luthiers as is commonly assumed. The initials or numbers stamped in earlier Ramirez guitars merely indicate which worker did the major assembly of that particular guitar. The assemblers worked with batches of semi-finished parts prepared in the shop by other workers and generally worked on four instruments at a time. They essentially were putting kits together. The other workers bent sides, joined and thicknessed tops and backs, glued up and shaped necks, made rosette tiles, did the fretting, finishing, etc. and final setup and adjustments.
The final result was due more to the luck of the draw rather than which worker glued the guitar together. Some dealers and private sellers of older Ramirez guitars would have you believe that the initials of a particular worker stamped in a Ramirez guitar automatically make it a better instrument and thus more valuable and desirable. This is complete and total nonsense.

Ramirez never worked for Contreras and there's no such thing as a Contreras guitar built by Jose Ramirez....classical, flamenco or otherwise.

I like the older Ramirez guitars. I have a 1963 spruce/cypress/pegs blanca with the "I.M." stamp of Ignacio Manzano Rozas on the foot.
I also have a signed 1973 Manuel Contreras blanca with pegs. They are both very fine but very different instruments.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 22:03:44)

I agree with Charles Vega. I bought a spruce/Brazilian "Doble Tapa" from Manuel Contreras, Sr in June 1991. I visited Contreras, Felix Manzanero, the Ramirez shop on Callle de la Paz, Bernabe and Vicente Camacho, playing instruments at all their shops.

Bernabe had no first class instruments at hand. At Bernabe's shop on Arcos de Cuchilleros, just off the Plaza Mayor, Bernabe, Jr offered me an "experimental guitar" built with first class materials and craftsmanship, but a new bracing pattern. I played a few scales. The note "A" (La) was notably louder than the rest, wherever it appeared in any octave on any string. I finished by playing just a few "A's" and handed the guitar back to Bernabe without comment. He returned it to the case.

I visited each shop at least two or three times. except for Bernabe, making comparisons. I conversed at some length with Manzanero and Contreras, Sr. Both emphasized Ramirez III's strict insistence on adherence to his design, and close supervision. They emphasized that he was a stern taksmaster. Contreras expressed his admiration for Ramirez, saying, "Where would we be without him?"

Perhaps the idea of the "Contreras" Ramirez derives from the fact that the first Ramirez that Segovia played in concerts was credited to Contreras building to Ramirez's design.

RNJ



keith -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 19 2012 22:09:57)

hey estebanana--i was not dissing the "hot dog worker name" guitars as guitars--most were pretty good student guitars--but jim sherry's bogus "made in spain" claim as well as the fictious name (hotdog worker or famous people of spain associated with flamenco???). owners of these hot dog guitars often times carry the spirit of sir sherry'to the nth degree and try to sell them for outlandish prices using jim sherry gospel in their descriptions and asking prices.



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 20 2012 12:42:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Erik, they were asking about an American importer of Ramirez named Brenner, but your information on Ramirez in Holland is interesting.


That's why i started with "I can't say anything about the American imports". But he also wondered if Ramirez and other luthiers would export their best guitars (to generate interest) or there worst (presuming those ignorant foreigners wouldn't know the difference). To the Netherlands he obviously started exporting his best ones.



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 20 2012 15:05:33)

quote:

: C. Vega

Erik,
You seem to have your facts confused. Manuel Contreras learned the craft of guitar making from Jose Ramirez, not the other way around. Contreras worked for Ramirez from 1959 until 1962 when he opened his own shop. While working in the Ramirez shop Contreras, like all the other workers, built instruments to Ramirez designs and specifications. There was no place in the Ramirez plan for individual interpretation. The guitars were all built exactly the same way and, yes, some can be quite good and others less so. Ramirez had the reputation of being a stern taskmaster who insisted on things being done his way.......

....Ramirez never worked for Contreras and there's no such thing as a Contreras guitar built by Jose Ramirez....classical, flamenco or otherwise.


Thanks for your reply and your correction. I had indeed mis-interpret the working relationship between Ramirez and Contreras jude to the fact the later Ramirez guitars seemed to suffered various 'improvements" which made them extremely difficult to play compared to the model my father bought himself in 1962 (indeed a Classical Ramirez Guitar with the working initials of Contreras). To me Ramirez's failing new policy seemed to be more consistent with a young and experimental luthier than with an established master.

One of these alterations seemed to be the introduction of extremely high bridges, probably to prevent snare drumming. As a result strings could not be brought close enough to the fretboard to enable comfortable playing and a luthier had to be consulted to lower both the bridge and the bone-positioner. On top he altered the shape of his necks (most likely to prevent snare drumming even more).

You seem to be very knowledgable on the subject so i wondered if you can confirm these alterations were indeed new policy for his Classical guitars or just coincidental. And if you know the story behind it in case it was indeed new policy.



keith -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 20 2012 18:09:10)

Erik, from what I have read I believe Ramirez began making and setting up his classical guitars similiar to the guitar he made for Segovia and this may account for the variance you mention. To be sure, the Ramirez clan made some long scale guitars pre-Segovia and probably had a similiar action.



C. Vega -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 20 2012 21:22:48)

Erik,
There are many classical guitars that have bridges that are higher than those on any Ramirez and still have a comfortable playing action. The high action on many older Ramirez classicals is a result of a steep neck angle rather than a high bridge. This coupled with a long scale length, a fingerboard that tapers off to the bass side and a wide and chunky neck can make some of these guitars very difficult to play. Not every player has huge gorilla hands like Segovia had.
The newer 650mm scale Ramirez classical guitars are much more player friendly.

Ramirez flamencos do not usually suffer from the same neck angle and playability problems as the classical models. They are built to a very different set of parameters and have remained essentially unchanged for many years.
I've owned a couple of Ramirez classicals over the years and have seen, played and worked on numerous others and I must admit that I never could warm up to them but the flamencos, at least for me, are a different story. Even the newer examples have some of that cool old-school vibe that I really like. The new ones may well be overpriced but nice used examples can often be purchased at realistic prices.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 20 2012 23:34:11)

Sr. Vega,
I wonder if you have ever played any of the Tezanos-Perez flamencos and whether they seem similar to the Ramirez flamencos to you?



C. Vega -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 0:21:52)

Miguel,
I've not had the opportunity to play a Tezanos-Perez flamenco.



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 5:55:54)

Thanks for your detailed info. Those were exactly the neck problems i mend. Did you ever favored either wooden pegs or mechanical ones? In my view wooden pegs means more wood (both the pegs and the closed head) and more wood by nature means more resonance. When my guitar makes contact with a wooden object during playing (like the wooden chair i sit on) that object also contributes to more resonance and volume. The Swedish luthier Boulin invested several years in constructing a judge wooden soundboard for private use that amplified his guitar by means of it's added natural resonance.



C. Vega -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 14:57:58)

Erik,
If I had to make a choice I'd prefer a guitar with properly fitted pegs but, admittedly, my preference is at least partially for aesthetic reasons.
There are just too many other variables, even in seemingly "identical" guitars from the same maker, to be able to definitively say that one or the other is better for resonance, tone, volume or whatever. I have three very good flamenco guitars that I play regularly. Two have pegs and one has machines. They're all different from one another but I can't really say that any one of them is the best. To me, each has it's good and not so good points. Another player might feel differently about them. It's totally subjective.

I'm familiar with Georg Bolin's experiments. There's some information about them in a book entitled "Georg Bolins gitarrbok" (1982) by Oscar Hedlund.
The American luthier Bruce Petros tried to commercially market his own "Soundboard" amplifiers that used a spruce or cedar soundboard instead of a cone-type speaker a number of years ago. They did work but the idea never really caught on.
There have been any number of non-electrical sound enhancement devices over the years, like the "resonance box" that classical guitarist Paul Galbraith uses, that were tried and abandoned. Galbraith still uses one but it is much smaller than the original one that he used that looked like a coffin with "f" holes.
There will always be a few people who will jump on the gimmick bandwagon and extoll the virtues of whatever "revelation" may be fashionable this week but in all honesty I think that if these things really offered any appreciable improvement a lot more serious players would be using them.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 15:04:41)

OK!



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 16:03:35)

Yes, properly fitted pegs......a know all about it. I once had to cary my Ramirez in a guitar case that was to small to handle it's pegs. Unfortunately i removed the pegs without annotating their original positions, presuming they were compatible and every peg would fit every peg hole. I found out the hard way they didn't and as a result the misplaced pegs tent to unlock themselves at the most inconvenient moments. I did consider mechanical replacements, but aesthetics and the fear for even the slightest loss/chance of sound prevent me to do so. I'm still doubting between hacking the wright combination(probably to late for that now, it happened years ago) trying out some violin resin or consult a proper luthier. I don't want replacement pegs as well, nor aesthetically nor emotionally (i like them just as they are).



Richard Jernigan -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 17:08:18)

My 1967 Ramirez 1a blanca originally had pegs. They never were as good as some other pegs I was acquainted with. When I bought a classical with machine tuners I became less satisfied with the accuracy achievable with the pegs.

Jose Ramirez III offered to replace the pegs with machines at no cost, but I never had the guitar in Spain at a convenient time. Frank Ford at Gryphon in Palo Alto, California refused to do the job, saying it would "compromise the character of the instrument," even though I pointed out that the maker himself was willing to do it.

Eventually Kenny Hill's shop replaced the pegs with a set of Gotoh tuners. I perceived no change in the sound of the guitar, and I have been quite happy with the machines ever since.

My 1982 Arcangel Fernandez blanca has Fustero machines. It is my favorite of all flamenco guitars I have ever played.

Still, if I were to commission a new flamenca, and I felt the luthier could do a good job with pegs, I would ask for them. If they don't work out, you can always replace them with machines.

One big advantage of pegs is that fewer people will ask to play your guitar.

RNJ



Erik van Goch -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 21 2012 19:49:31)

quote:

One big advantage of pegs is that fewer people will ask to play your guitar


Another big advantage is that you can reanimate your strings within seconds. Down tuning takes less then a second, you snare drum the string a couple of times to remove dust and other impurities and you reset original tuning within seconds. Feels very much like enjoying a speed tire service at the races.



a_arnold -> RE: So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner? (Jul. 22 2012 2:38:04)

Thanks, guys. This is a big help. I was traveling to rehearsal for an upcoming concert and couldn't respond until now. But, based on what you have said, it seems like the non-rumor-based consensus is this: Sherry Brenner was sleazy but his Ramirez guitars are at least real Ramirez guitars, and probably are as worthy of a trial as any other Ramirez.

So I'm having one sent to me that, based on its history, has a chance of being a good guitar.

It's in the mail to me now: a 1969 peghead cedar-top blanca with the relieved bass-side fingerboard mentioned in one of the posts above.

I am attaching a pic of the neck block. The initials are either OP or CP -- I think CP but the C could be an imperfect O stamp. IF ANYONE HAS A RAMIREZ WITH A "C" STAMP IN IT, I'D BE GRATEFUL IF YOU COULD LOOK AND COMPARE WHETHER THIS "C" LOOKS LIKE YOUR "C". (See attached photos).

Assuming "CP" my resources suggest Pedro Contreras or Cayetano Alvarez Luna, who both used the same initials, but the order seems to be reversed(?) unless there is something I don't understand about initial conventions. I don't know what is under the Sherry Brenner label, but the 1969 Ramirez label seems to have the pale blue edge that I think means 1A, Yes?





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