Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Full Version)

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HolyEvil -> Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 15 2012 23:41:13)

http://www.guitarsalon.com/p4016-2012-pepe-romero-cdin.html

"Since his 170th instrument, Pepe has adopted a reverse fan system (fans radiating from the bridge area, rather than from the soundhole) for his standard model after studying an early 1970's Rodriguez with this very system. "

Would this sort of bracing actually work for a good flamenco sound?
I would never think about buying a guitar of this price from a classical maker, but I was just curious about the bracing pattern.

cheers



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 17:58:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil


Would this sort of bracing actually work for a good flamenco sound?
I would never think about buying a guitar of this price from a classical maker, but I was just curious about the bracing pattern.

cheers

The first guitar I built back in the early 60's had radial bracing. It sounded ok and is still around. That was the only guitar I ever built with radial bracing so I guess that suggests what I think of it.



Ricardo -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 21:28:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil


Would this sort of bracing actually work for a good flamenco sound?
I would never think about buying a guitar of this price from a classical maker, but I was just curious about the bracing pattern.

cheers

The first guitar I built back in the early 60's had radial bracing. It sounded ok and is still around. That was the only guitar I ever built with radial bracing so I guess that suggests what I think of it.

What are the actual differences generally speaking of fanning out from hole, vs fanning out from bridge, vs parallel sticks?? I mean soundwise if any?



keith -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 21:53:28)

here is a description of said guitar (from GSI): "The sound is thick and warm, yet very pure and separated, which is exceptional for a cedar top negra like this. One interesting detail is the use of a brass nut, which also adds an extra helping of clarity and brightness to the sound." If one likes their flamencos thick and warm then I guess the "reverse spread" of struts might be the way to go.

In my years of reading posts by luthiers it seems the standard torres type pattern has yet to be beat. Additionally, it seems to me most of the luthiers who have posted believe the strut pattern is secondary to a host of other components such as strut thickness, height, and slope--as well as a host of other non-strut components (top thickness, etc.).

There have been a few threads at acguitar and delcamp about new and improved strut placement and it seems to me the general consensus is the "tried and true" torres" spread seems to be the best (of course Smallman's system is unto itself and is definitely a radical departure and seems to be the one non-torres-ish system being used by many luthiers across the globe). These new and improved strut systems include Kasha and a patent system using curved braces, etc. Of note, these non-torres type systems have been used on classical guitars. I have not heard of a lattice braced, very thin top flamenco. Has anyone?



estebanana -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 23:07:14)

Why don't you just email Pepe Jr. and ask him about it?



Sean -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 23:34:02)

Well I wouldn't go and say new and improved strut systems, more like newer. The Kasha system never caught on and I have no idea why people continue beating a dead horse. Smallmans design would soon look like chicken wire if used for Flamenco, best to stick with what they're good at, imitating a banjo.
All wood lattice is seen in a certain unmentionable brand of flamenco guitar, they make a better crossover guitar then pure flamenco, depends on your tastes.
Most Flamencos struts are angled a little straighter to aid in separation of the notes so it doesn't sound muddy.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 16 2012 23:41:38)

As far as I can wotk out, this is not a radial bracing system but a fan system where the braces converge as the approach the tailblock rather than as they approach the soundhole.
Could'nt find any pictures.



TANúñez -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 17 2012 1:42:02)

That is really interesting. I wonder how often Rodriguez would use this system. The bracing pattern I'm using now is based on a 1967 Rodriguez flamenco but it is nothing like this.



HolyEvil -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 17 2012 3:12:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

That is really interesting. I wonder how often Rodriguez would use this system. The bracing pattern I'm using now is based on a 1967 Rodriguez flamenco but it is nothing like this.


Yeah i found it really interested..
But juust wondering, what is Rodriguez famous for?
eg esteso, santos - flamenco, hauser, ramirez - classical etc.
where does rodriguez fit into the picture.



estebanana -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 17 2012 3:26:26)

I know which one he's talking about. I still say call Pepe Jr. he has access to many many guitars that belong to his family and he probably has reasons for using that system. I bet he would explain it briefly in an email.

I hesitate to say anything because I would not want to second guess Pepe Jr. - But guitars are funny creatures, what works for one person may not work for another person. And it's difficult often to explain why. Guitar making is super personal, in the same way that rasgueados are for players. Why does one player make a certain type of rasgueado sound different than another player?

When you get into generalizing about what a brace system does, someone else can employ the same system or something close and work it to sound different. Think about how much variation in sound one an get by simply working the Torres basic pattern over and over.

I'm of the opinion that you can make any brace system work if you mess with it enough. Others disagree. So there you have a difficulty even getting a consensus on a general unified field theory of brace systems. If Pepe has built that one several times he would be the one to say what it enables him to do. He may not want to reveal why or how, I would not if it were me, but he might say something that he heard or understood about the original guitar with that bracing he encountered that had qualities he liked.

The other thing is maybe the way the copy is written in the ad is to get you excited about this mystical brace pattern. Which is also a good reason to go right to the source and ask how that original guitar spoke to him...?

Guitar making is really putting together a lot of information, parts or systems once separated from the context of the whole may not be tangible information for forming an answer.

One more thing, without hearing the guitar, judging or explaining by the description in the copy is nearly impossible. It's not a common brace system, it's rather an esoteric inversion of what we usually do, I could speculate, but I have not made one or many like that so I would rather ask someone who has.

Saves time that way.



[:D]



TANúñez -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 17 2012 14:02:44)

quote:

Yeah i found it really interested..
But juust wondering, what is Rodriguez famous for?
eg esteso, santos - flamenco, hauser, ramirez - classical etc.
where does rodriguez fit into the picture.


I would say he is best known for his classical guitars. However, he has produced some outstanding flamencos as well.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 18 2012 5:13:48)

It is wonderful to live in the age of the internet. I had a question about Pepe Romero's old method book, and I emailed him--and he answered. I mean, the famous Pepe Romero, by the way. :)



Jeff Highland -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 23 2012 2:41:53)

Just skimming though a newly purchased 1971 book by Arthur Overholtzer, I saw that he showed this reverse fan bracing arrangement and attributed it to Yacobi.
So it has been around for a while.



Randy Reynolds -> RE: Pepe Romero jr's flamenco's bracing (Jul. 27 2012 14:38:37)

I have used radial bracing for about 12 years now on both classicals and Flamencos. In contrasting fan vs. radial bracing patterns on Flamenco guitars with radial bracing I would normally expect fewer weak notes on the treble "E" string above the 7th fret and perhaps a bit more volume although I wouldn't insist on it. No problems with durability on any radial braced guitars even in the tropics.

One of the best Flamencos I ever made was Kasha braced with mixed Spruce and Cedar struts. In general I think too much is made of bracing designs. It really is a matter of how experienced the luthier is with his favorite style and of course the quality of wood. I like radial bracing because it's more fun to make and it lends itself to my vacuum system and shaping braces off the soundboard.



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