RE: In Defense of Theory (Full Version)

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Kevin -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 24 2012 17:33:19)

quote:

But don't you find it somewhat understandable?


Sure. I really thought most of my posts were lost to oblivion and my decision would go unnoticed.

I also find it hypocritical that people complain and post garbage and then go watch my video tutorial.[8|]



Ron.M -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 24 2012 18:35:11)

It's not hypocrisy Kevin, just normal human behaviour, in my experience anyway.

I think your site may be a wee bit too esoteric to run as a commercial concern though, as most beginners just want to know what "secret" technique PdL uses to get that really fast picado ... [:D]

I enjoyed your video mucho, but as a "hammer and tongs" man myself I think I'll probably just fumble about and thrash around with stuff as usual.

But that's just me.

If you really believe in what you are doing, then I'd say run with it and ignore any criticism. That's important.

I must admit though, that when I was selling the software "Flamenco Master", nobody on this forum knew I had even written it as I never promoted it or mentioned it here.
But that was me and then was then.

It certainly didn't make me rich, as I kinda guess your site won't either I'm afraid.

Anyway...who knows?

So I just ended up giving it away for free as I got tired of exchanging endless emails from punters who thought $12 would buy them the metronome plus a free lifetime's subscription to personal tabs, videos and lessons. [&:]

Got a feelin' you might encounter some of that too!

Still, the main reason I did it was because I wanted to know how the Internet worked back in 2000.
How do you set up a website with a dotcom name?
How do you write HTML?
How do you upload files and pages?
What are "Meta" tags?

So I had a bit of educational fun and I don't regret it.

As well as that, I got a number of sales from España, (Andalucia even!) which chuffed me up no end!!

WTF....It's all good.

Best of luck anyway Kev!

cheers,

Ron



yourwhathurts69 -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 2:54:04)

Just curious, what's up with all these "sus" chords? Am I the only one thinking in chord extensions beyond b9?



Kevin -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 3:20:30)

@Ron: Thanks for your encouragement. I have really been thinking about the business end of things. It is possible it will flop but it is a labor of love anyway. If it flops oh well, I tried.

@YWH69:
Nice name.[;)] As a guitarist I would respond "My back from sitting all the time."

As you are probably aware, many chords can be given multiple names. In A phrygian this chord could be thought of as Gm/F# or Daug. If it is the resolution it is Gm, if it is the dissonant chord, then D.
---------
--3--------
--3--------
--4--------
---------
---------

Really interesting question though. It depends on whether the d (the suspended fourth or 11th) is arrived at in the chord before. Then you are talking functional harmony. It is truly a suspension then. If on the other hand it is a tone that is not prepared, then you have to ask what is the best name for it and why.

This is also why people should not just mix theories until we know why we are mixing them and what the best way to proceed is. Unfortunately there are not enough people doing this for flamenco so we will continue to have a language borrowed from multiple theories and no uniformity. Anyway, interesting.

quote:

Just curious, what's up with all these "sus" chords? Am I the only one thinking in chord extensions beyond b9?

You are thinking like a jazzer. Flamenco is a hybrid withroots that go back as far as the baroque. Therefore, we cannot just use jazz theory as a basis for naming its harmonies. Also, it would be ethnocentric to do so until we figure out how and why flamencos have made the choices they have.



Ricardo -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 16:15:26)

quote:

Therefore, we cannot just use jazz theory as a basis for naming its harmonies. Also, it would be ethnocentric to do so until we figure out how and why flamencos have made the choices they have.


so why use classical theory to do the same?[8|] Again I hope when you say "until we" refering to just yourself, cuz there are others that have already figured it out even though they didn't "publish" anything or write a book about it.

Regarless I would call your example as per a palo in A phrygian, Bb+ with the main idea of using this to evoke the M. de Falla "brujo" sound, mode 2 of G melodic minor, regardless what comes next. D+ as you named could work in context of Taranta as you need A# not Bb when naming the chord. F#+ or Gb+ is not likely to be associated with any flamenco palo unless used as chromatic passing.

quote:

As an ethnomusicologist I would emphasize that equal temperament and the circle of fifths are mutually exclusive. You do need ET in order to play the cycle, BUT the cycle is not required by ET.


Not sure if you are confusing "cycle" and "circle". When I talk circle of 5ths I mean that tempered instruments are bound to the overall scope of what the circle implies....not that one must cycle keys and chords in a specific fashion. A non tempered instrument can't play in all 12 keys so it doesn't make sense to say "you don't need ET to play the cycle"...unless as I said you refer to going through a cycle of chords based on the tuning system of the non tempered instrument? Anyway , an instrument that uses chords such as guitar or piano, is lorded over the inescapable implications of the circle of 5ths ...unless you deliberately mess with the tuning in such a way that only ONE mode can be used.



Kevin -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 19:02:51)

quote:

cuz there are others that have already figured it out even though they didn't "publish" anything or write a book about it.


That's a bold statement. People are still publishing on the problems associated with the concepts "modality" and "tonality" but someone has figured out flamenco??? They SHOULD publish because then they can get reviewed by peers and see if it holds up and probably make a little money as well.

I didn't imply that we should not use jazz theory. Rather I said we should proceed with caution. One should understand how and why the two practices are different. They each have a tradition. There will never be another Paco because he came at a time when EVERYONE had the base. Now so many players are confused and don't even know it. Don't take my word...Sanlucar complains of the same thing and many older guitarists as well. It is only partially generational...the complaint is well founded. That is because many young players do not study Montoya and Ricardo and Sabicas and Paco de Lucena (yes there are a couple of his falsetas floating about) and Luis Maravilla, etc.

From a theoretical standpoint, that is if you like theory, you should understand how these early practices work. THEORY IS ALWAYS BASED ON PRACTICE. I would argue that Paco does know theory through intuition, he just can't articulate it verbally. Tacit vs explicit knowledge.

quote:

Regarless I would call your example as per a palo in A phrygian, Bb+ with the main idea of using this to evoke the M. de Falla "brujo" sound, mode 2 of G melodic minor, regardless what comes next. D+ as you named could work in context of Taranta as you need A# not Bb when naming the chord. F#+ or Gb+ is not likely to be associated with any flamenco palo unless used as chromatic passing.


I am not sure why you would want to call it Bb+ but to be fair, that chord is not situated in a context which will influence what one calls it in the above post. THIS IS WHY ONE SHOULD ALWAYS PROCEED WITH CAUTION. SINCE IT COMES FROM MY OWN RECENT ACCOMPANIMENT, I know exactly what I was thinking when I composed it. It's reduced for time's sake. I don't want to ascii the whole thing.

------------------------------------------------------
--11--10---------5--4--3------3-4-3----3--3---------
--10---9----------5--4--3-------------5--5--3------
--8-----7----------6--5--4-----------------3--3--------
----------------------------------------------5--5-4-5----
----------------------------------------------3--3-----

This is not the complete melody but enough to show that D+ works as a passing chord. I do use the seventh mode of G melodic minor to color that chord but the end melody implies D phrygian dominant (or D phrygian) going to G.

quote:

"you don't need ET to play the cycle"


You misquoted me. You DO need equal temperament to play through the cycle. Dm-G-C-F-Bb-Gm-A would sound horrible without it. Equal Temperament however, DOES not require that you play the cycle.

quote:

So we share F major and D minor chords and scales, but come to rest always on A as tonic when dealing with the "phrygian key" of A.


Not really. I see where you are going but A phrygian is its own key based on Phrygian and Phrygian dominant scales. The 3rd is raised when playing the tonic unless the minor tonic is used for expansion. You wouldn't tell a student that a minor key shares the major chords and scales because although it would not be technically incorrect, it does not convey the essential information to understand the minor key.



Ricardo -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 20:01:01)

quote:

This is not the complete melody but enough to show that D+ works as a passing chord


Your fingerings work just fine, and it is NOT a passing chord...the other chords are the passing chords and should be named C+ B+ and the one in question was your "goal" chord of rest for the moment, called Bb+ as per the spelling of the notes. D+ is not a correct spelling in this context IMO. Like wise it is wrong to call the Bb chord an A# chord in context of A phrygian, Dminor, or Fmajor keys. The key of Gminor does not use D+ it is also Bb+... easy to understand as the 3rd chord in the harmonic minor or melodic minor chord scale. D+ is spelled DF#A#....HOpe that makes sense.

quote:

You misquoted me.

Ok sorry your right I misread your quote. Hope you got my point that I was not talking about a CYCLE of chords only in my posts about how flamenco obeys the CIRCLE of 5ths not a specific cycle of chords. I consider modal vamps part of the circle of 5ths relations of chords scales key sig etc.

quote:

Not really. I see where you are going but A phrygian is its own key based on Phrygian and Phrygian dominant scales. The 3rd is raised when playing the tonic unless the minor tonic is used for expansion. You wouldn't tell a student that a minor key shares the major chords and scales because although it would not be technically incorrect, it does not convey the essential information to understand the minor key.


YES really man. It is not only based on the mix of two scales....that would be like saying "the key of D minor is a mix of D aeloian mode and D harmonic minor" which is simply NOT true. D minor as a KEY is afforded also melodic minor scale, and any system of accidentals that imply modulation or force modulation INCLUDING simply moving to F major. Hence the entire chromatic spectrum is available to use so long as you spell **** CORRECTLY relative to the key signature you start with. Flamenco is NO different with the exception we can have a "phrygian" tonic in addition to relative major or minor. Likewise as you talk of raised third, in minor keys the same thing occurs for the same reason, although you call it the minor v chord is used "for expansion" as you say, or rather, to evoke the aeolian mode for minor key, vs flamenco when it is done it evoke natural phrygian mode in a similar fashion.

I WOULD infact tell a student that the minor key shares major chords and scales with it's relative major....and go further to describe harmonizing a melody as invoking modal colors depending on the chord. For example...a melody in the key of D minor that at a certain point is harmonized by a Bb chord is for that time being indistinguishable from a lydian modal exploration, not simply the IV chord. Later the concept of using the harmonic minor scale in a minor key we realize most of the time it is actually the phrygian dominant coming into play at that moment do to the V7 chord.

I feel classically trained musicians or any musician not tuned in to rhythm and phrasing of flamenco will invariably confuse a "Modal" flamenco palo with simply being in the minor key. I have actually heard some one say "flamenco guitarsist are just hanging on the V chord of minor, and leaving it unresolved" which is NOT true when you get into the rhythm and phrasing. For sure it is a correct view from only the notes and chords persepective...but rhythm changes everything IMO...and very subtly I might add.



Tomrocker -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 23:17:27)

Thanks for the link Kevin. I can't wait to see your new site. Good luck in all. Please spread the news once the site is active [;)]



XXX -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 25 2012 23:29:19)

why do western musicians always want to boil it down to minor or major when flamenco is mostly phrygian. Its II-I, not V-I and not bII-I either. In phrygian there is no note between II and I.



Kevin -> RE: In Defense of Theory (Jun. 26 2012 5:05:31)

quote:

why do western musicians always want to boil it down to minor or major when flamenco is mostly phrygian. Its II-I, not V-I and not bII-I either. In phrygian there is no note between II and I.


Preaching to the choir. Who said that and where, and in what context?



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