Is this wrong? (Full Version)

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TANúñez -> Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 22:40:05)

There is a guitar built from the Blackshear Reyes plans on ebay by an un-named luthier. The Reyes label is even copied. Is this wrong? I have a problem with this but maybe it's just me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Manuel-Reyes-Flamenco-Guitar-/160816210212?pt=Guitar&hash=item257164a124#ht_560wt_936



gounaro -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 22:52:34)

Weird things! [8|]



GuitarVlog -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 23:04:51)

Copied Reyes label?

Isn't that counterfeiting regardless of whether or not an educated buyer would know that it's not a real Reyes?

Un-named luthier?

Maybe I'd offer a little more than what I bought for my Yamaha.
[:D]



EDIT:
Oh! It comes with a case!

I'd offer the price of my Yamaha plus $40.
[:D] [:D]



El Kiko -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 23:21:42)

Copying a guitar , I have no problem with , I wish I had the skills myself to do that .
However the problem I see is the copied label as this is the mark of the luthier.
and really is one of the things that blatantly says this guitar was made by XYZ luthier , even though it is stated it is not the case I still see a big problem.
I think it should be easy to solve , there are many luthiers here we just ask them "how do you feel about someone copying your design ANd putting a copy of your signature inside on the label.?"
That should get some interesting replies....



Jeff Highland -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 23:36:56)

Wrong both for copying the label and for the concept that building exactly to the dimensions gives you the same sound quality.



Mark2 -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 23:42:21)

It's like a fake Les Paul with a Gibson label. Sooner or later, someone is likely to pass it off as the real thing. If it's really good guitar, the maker should have his own label on it and let it find it's value in the market place. If it's just so someone can hang it in a glass case and pretend it's authentic, cool. The problem is when someone represents it as the real deal.



keith -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 4 2012 23:43:48)

it appears there is a signature on the label of reyes and that, in my book, makes it a bogus/fraud since reyes apparently did not make the guitar. the seller says "an experienced guitar maker and member of the Guild of American Luthiers. Much like Blackshear, this particular guitar is number 3 in a series of 4 built." so now this bogus reyes is invoking a member of GAL and blackshear. and maple?



Sean -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 0:14:55)

WTF [:o] he forgot to add exactly as Vicente Amigo plays. If only the GAL was a real Guild so we could watch him being stoned to death. This is so wrong in so many ways and the sad thing is the person is completely clueless of the fact.



shaun -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 0:23:34)

They forged the signature too? They should sell it to Chumlee on Pawn Stars.



TANúñez -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 1:16:06)

I noticed the signature too but can't read it. Is it the builders or a forgery of Reyes? If it's a forgery of Reyes that is a no no for obvious reasons. I have no problem with building a replica. I myself have done so. However, I will put MY name on the label and not the maestros. I also don't like using a makers headstock design IF, the maker is still alive. This is just MY opinion. Alive = copying. Dead = tribute. Unless the maker is alive and your building a replica as a tribute BUT, put YOUR name on the label. Just my measly two cents.



estebanana -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 2:19:04)

This is fraud. Even if you disclose it is a bench copy it's unethical to use a label from another authentic existing guitar.

Looks like a Xerox or scanned and printed copy of a label from an existing guitar. It even shows Reyes' stamps!

I bet Reyes would be really pissed off about this. Someone who writes good Spanish should email his son and tell him. That should be yanked off eBay.



keith -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 9:54:21)

i copied and blew up the label and then went to g.s.i. to look at a legit label. the bogus label has a signature very close to the legit label--enough so that one would easily come to the conclusion it is a fake. it probably is an exact copy but given the quality of the photo it is difficult to truly ascertain. the label in of itself is copied. i notified the folks at the bay of the issue.



El Kiko -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 12:52:04)

as I said before the big problem is the label and signature and stamp etc ....one can buy designs of many guitars , even online like Ignatio Fleta , jose Romanillos , etc.. and then a good luthier could make a nice guitar from them with high quality materials ...
So the Guitar itself is not the problem ., in fact reading about it I think it is probably a very good guitar , and will sound as well flamenco ..

So if I were the luthier that made it I would actually want my name inside it to say ''Look how good my work is..I can copy a masters guitar and make it everybit as good ' '
so my own designs would carry some weight and credibility .. .. surely.....

So the reason for forging a label , is very suspect , going to all that effort and having the guitar with no maker ,... it just smells bad ......
Its a type of art fraud , even though it is declared ... I can paint a picture , in a certain style , but only if I sign it Leonardo da Vinci , at that point I have crossed the line ....
We also know that all this was in the head of the luthier when building , is it right or wrong ?/
Further more it also begs the question are there other luthiers out there who have made guitars in the style of a maker and with a label and sent it through the market as the real deal...
I for one would not know , assuming it was high quality ....
there are a lot of other things to be considered as well once you start thinking of its implications .........



Ramon Amira -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 18:50:16)

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.

Ramon



estebanana -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 18:54:01)

quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.


ha ha ha ha



bursche -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 21:03:11)

stolen reyes. the story is made up to cover the theft. buy it now!!!



keith -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 21:15:47)

ramon--if the seller apprenticed under jim sherry he did not quite pick up the finer points of the trade as in: make up a bogus name such as manuelino reyes or slap on a sticker denoting the guitar as a 2a or, better yet, a vincente amigo model. for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.

i just noticed a d***m has made his third offer and it is now pending. i hope this guy knows what he is getting into.



El Kiko -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 21:33:39)

quote:

stolen reyes. the story is made up to cover the theft.

Ha.... another interesting idea.............



Ramon Amira -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 23:26:19)

quote:

for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.


He should be flogged with a composite G string - while it's still on a guitar!

Ramon



TANúñez -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 5 2012 23:30:17)

quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.


Well that explains a lot then.



GuitarVlog -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 6 2012 0:18:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez
quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.

Well that explains a lot then.

He learned the art of fraud decades ago.
[:D]



shaun -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 6 2012 0:22:39)

quote:

quote:

for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.



He should be flogged with a composite G string - while it's still on a guitar!


He should be flogged with a composite G string while it's still on THAT guitar!



Sean -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 6 2012 3:25:53)

Wow a digital caliper, it must be good[:D]
I wonder if it has the same un Flamenco setup as the guitar depicted in said plan, you know the 50gram bridge design, patio stone thick fretboard and a string height off the soundboard you could drop a midget through.

If you sell fake Gucci handbags it's still a crime even if you tell your customers its a knockoff



Stephen Eden -> RE: Is this wrong? (Jun. 6 2012 16:35:06)

Gucci will have copy rights to the design which makes it illegal to copy and sell on.

I don't think you can file for copy right protection on a spanish guitar of this kind.

It's still fraudulant to stick his label in with his signature on. A few years down the line if the story of the maker is not sold in with it, the guitar could fetch a pretty penny wouldn't you think?



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