Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (Full Version)

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machopicasso -> Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 27 2012 10:03:00)

It seems that most players privilege one pair of fingers for playing picado: either i-m, i-a, or perhaps less frequently m-a. Even Gerardo Nunez, who seems the most versatile, appears to privilege one pair (and, unfortunately, one that involves the injured index).

I've experimented with all three and, at least given the physiological structure of my right hand, am inclined to think each pair has an advantage over the others for different applications of picado (e.g. i-a for descending picado runs, m-a for picado on the two highest trebles, etc.).

So, I wanted to ask: is there any good reason not to try to train all three pairs equally? The only disadvantage I can think of is that one might acquire speed more quickly by focusing exclusively on one finger. But I'm not sure 1) if that's true and 2) if doing so would off-set the advantages of versatility acquired through training all three pairs equally.

What do the experienced players think?

I'm also curious to know if there are any players who frequently use multiple pairs of fingers when playing picado.



Elie -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 27 2012 11:34:19)

quote:

What do the experienced players think?

Andres Segovia thinks that you should




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machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 28 2012 9:15:23)

quote:

Andres Segovia thinks that you should


Are there any flamencos who do this with the aim of becoming ambidextrous (for lack of a better word) on picado? I ask, in part, because I was so impressed with Gerardo's versatility in the Encuentro video and then somewhat disappointed to learn it's not really appropriated in his playing.

(I'm not knocking Gerardo; he's one of my favorite players. I'm just wondering if this is a good strategy for approaching (flamenco) picado, in general.)



rombsix -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 28 2012 9:53:49)

quote:

Are there any flamencos who do this with the aim of becoming ambidextrous (for lack of a better word) on picado? I ask, in part, because I was so impressed with Gerardo's versatility in the Encuentro video and then somewhat disappointed to learn it's not really appropriated in his playing.

(I'm not knocking Gerardo; he's one of my favorite players. I'm just wondering if this is a good strategy for approaching (flamenco) picado, in general.)


I think you are always going to find people who do not practice picado using all possible finger combinations as indicated in Elie's image above of Segovia's exercise. These people will be picado machines / beasts. You will also find others who are beasts who do use all finger combinations to practice. You will also find beasts who do i-m and others who do i-a as the preferred technique in general. So the message I am trying to convey is to try and see if you feel that helps. If yes, stick with it. If not, drop it.

Cheers!



Ricardo -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 28 2012 14:21:39)

quote:

I ask, in part, because I was so impressed with Gerardo's versatility in the Encuentro video and then somewhat disappointed to learn it's not really appropriated in his playing.


It is just not strong enough sounding or practical to go fast as im or ia even. a-m was just to develop some control and even Gerardo just walks through some medium speed scales. It is was never intended and can no way be a substitute for im picado. Gerardo is still making music using other techniques and I think he does do some a-m combos wtih arps or tremolo, and even uses the i finger though it is not the same as before. When expressing and composing we (should) use tools that make it easiest to say what we need to musically. Picado is not so important a musical statement that one would simply HAVE to develop a way to do it in light of such an injury.



machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 29 2012 9:36:54)

quote:

It is just not strong enough sounding or practical to go fast as im or ia even. a-m was just to develop some control and even Gerardo just walks through some medium speed scales. It is was never intended and can no way be a substitute for im picado.


This touches on one of the questions motivating my original post: namely, is i-m picado intrinsically, or naturally, stronger than i-a and m-a?

Part of me was hoping that's not the case because my index seems to be weaker than both my m and a fingers. (E.g. if I'm playing thumb-plus-two-other-finger arpeggio, then I'm always inclined to use p-m-a. Incidentally, is that bad technique?)

Lately, I've been practicing all three combinations in my picado exercises. Similarly, whenever I stumble upon a picado run in a song, I'll pause and try all three to see which is most effective. I'm finding my i-m picado is improving, which is nice. But I'm also finding that each pair is more effective than the others -- in terms of speed, accuracy, and tone -- for different applications of picado. That's been illuminating.

So, to Rombsix, I'll probably stick with this for a while. (It'd be bad-ass to have monster picado speed on all three pairs of fingers, though we'll soon learn how feasible that is for me).

Ricardo, I agree with your other point about, as it were, the priority of musicality over technique. At the same time, picado is such a distinct and integral technique to flamenco guitar that it's difficult to circumnavigate the absence of that technique, musically. For me, at least, that issue is one of the driving forces behind my curiosity for Gerardo's next album, aside from the fact that it'll be great music, regardless.



Don Dionisio -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 29 2012 13:42:16)

Maybe I am missing something in your message...
I don't know what type of player you are either.
But, any player with an ounce of humility would ask
a more experienced player to examine his technique.
Have you done this? Videoconferencing is a godsend.
Perhaps a session with Ricardo or Grisha would
set you straight.
Then you could have a professional advise you and make
sure you are practicing good habits and not reinforcing bad ones.
My 2 cents...



Elie -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 1:23:51)

quote:

is i-m picado intrinsically, or naturally, stronger than i-a and m-a?


I think Ricardo might say so ... as he always says that you can't achieve the same good sounding quality of i-m using other combinations

but for me i-a is always a king .. im trying hard to improve my i-m but whatever I do my i-a is always faster !



ninoderoberto -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 6:09:45)

If your i finger is shorter then m finger (approx 2 cm) like mine ... and a finger is shorter 1 cm compare to m finger, which combination is faster...?



machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 10:12:39)

quote:

but for me i-a is always a king .. im trying hard to improve my i-m but whatever I do my i-a is always faster !


I was initially introduced to picado while studying classical with a former student of Segovia. He used and recommended i-a because he said there was less overlap of the tendons (or something like that).

I definitely find i-a both faster and more accurate for certain angles of attack. The angle seems to make all the difference in the world. That said, I'm also finding that, as I practice all three pairs equally, my i-m is catching-up, so we'll see what happens...



machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 10:23:41)

quote:

If your i finger is shorter then m finger (approx 2 cm) like mine ... and a finger is shorter 1 cm compare to m finger, which combination is faster...?


That's the thing: differences in finger length seem to make certain pairs of fingers more effective than others for certain instances of picado. I like m-a when playing picado on the two highest trebles because I can extend both fingers fully.

By contrast, with i-m, I always have to bend the m-finger on account of the differences in length. Despite that, however, i-m is still faster and more accurate on certain occasions.

As I wrote above, I'm finding practicing all three pairs illuminating. Perhaps doing the same would help you find what works best for you.



mark indigo -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 10:48:07)

quote:

He used and recommended i-a because he said there was less overlap of the tendons (or something like that).


if i remember correctly (i could look it up to be sure) the i finger has more independence, but m and a share a tendon (or a tendon sheath or something like that, i did know it once, but can't remember now without checking). So using i alternately with either a or m is gonna work better, but m and a alternating will always be slower and more awkward.

there is some stuff about this in Christopher Berg's classical guitar technique book. although the rest of the book relates more to developing technique for classical music, the anatomy of the hands is the same, and he is quoting and referencing Raoul Tubiana, specialist in hand surgery and author of books on anatomy and physiology of the hand, including "Medical Problems of the Instrumentalist Musician".

this also relates to the issue of which finger to use playing on the beat or on the accents. Although the i finger is more independent and has more accuracy (and i think faster too), the m finger is actually stronger, so although most players "lead" with i to either begin picado or play on the beat (or both) as it is faster and more accurate, there is also the idea that using m on the beat gives a greater rhythmic attack.



Elie -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 30 2012 12:19:52)

thank you mark and picasso very nice info



machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (May 31 2012 9:58:31)

quote:

the i finger has more independence, but m and a share a tendon (or a tendon sheath or something like that, i did know it once, but can't remember now without checking). So using i alternately with either a or m is gonna work better,


That makes sense to me. As I practice all three pairs, I find m-a lagging behind the other two pairs in terms of speed.

quote:

Although the i finger is more independent and has more accuracy (and i think faster too), the m finger is actually stronger,


That also makes sense, as I normally advert to m-a when I'm focusing on tone (and perhaps thus strength?) as opposed to speed.



Dedos -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (Jun. 3 2012 14:53:32)

A really fascinating read is at this link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100211/?tool=pubmed
A lot of questions are answered and a lot of thought provoking information is provided to the thinking guitarist.
Dedos



Grisha -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (Jun. 3 2012 19:22:33)

Watch this old video of Dmitry Mamontov. Don't you think his picado is pretty good? Got a chance to perform with him once before he passed away :(




beno -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (Jun. 3 2012 20:06:49)

quote:

Watch this old video of Dmitry Mamontov


I've seen this before, and thought He played amazingly!

He also uses 3 fingers, right?



machopicasso -> RE: Picado -- Only ONE pair of fingers? (Jun. 4 2012 10:51:12)

quote:

Watch this old video of Dmitry Mamontov. Don't you think his picado is pretty good?


I'm guessing his p-a-m-i tremolo is probably similarly amazing.[:)]



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