Why can't I hear it!?

Why can't I hear it!? (Full Version)

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Pilluminati -> Why can't I hear it!? (May 16 2012 21:14:26)
0:00-0:11, Is it just me who has problems hearing the compas? If I start listening to the song right from the beginning I will hear the compas inverted (or something). But if I listen to the song from 0:12~ I hear it correctly. No idea why... Anyone else having the same problem?

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 16 2012 22:15:59)
I count like this the rhythm 1e&ah 2e&ah. Others count different but you foot needs to be on 1,2. Claps are up beat &ah, & etc His arp starts on "ah" right BEFORE 1. The reason your ear is thrown at first is cuz The bass notes fall on ah after 1, and the tonic on the ah after 2. I call that leading the Down beat. Probably your ear wantsM that last bass note on the down beat, or the first bass note on down beat. (down Beat is 1 amigos). Ear gravitates heavy beats to bass notes And this case they are not on heavy beats. Easy way to lock in is to feel beat 2 right after that first bass note

Elie -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 4:33:34)
dom - taka - dom - tak .... dom - taka - dom - tak ..... it's all fine man [:D]

Pilluminati -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 15:40:23)
I also have a problem with hearing the "dom - taka - dom tak..." in the correct order sometimes. It's like 50-50 that I get it right, otherwise I will hear it like: "taka - dom - tak... taka - dom - tak..." It's really weird, got no problems with bulerias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias etc. Just Tangos. Should probably get my ears checked lol

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 16:02:35)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pilluminati I also have a problem with hearing the "dom - taka - dom tak..." in the correct order sometimes. It's like 50-50 that I get it right, otherwise I will hear it like: "taka - dom - tak... taka - dom - tak..." It's really weird, got no problems with bulerias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias etc. Just Tangos. Should probably get my ears checked lol its ok man, Al dimeola made the same mistake with Paco once when Paco started Mediterranean sundance with dry rhythm. Paco and Mclaughlin had to "cross over" after Al started playing the melody in the wrong spot. Work on grounding your ear by making loops of tangos or rumba starting at weird points in compas....like the example above, but there are others. Here is a fun non flamenco one I noticed the other day. Can you all find the beat based on the thumping keyboard intro? HINT: the first thump doesnt begin on count 1, but the song is in 4..... free skype lesson to whom ever tells me what the first thump starts on.

malakka -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 17:31:25)
Seems like beat 3 to me

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 17:42:01)
quote: ORIGINAL: malakka Seems like beat 3 to me nope

malakka -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 17:53:38)
Funny, I kept counting it as beat 3, but I just counted it out as beginning on beat 4. I assume my second attempt doesn't count.

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 18:21:59)
quote: ORIGINAL: malakka Funny, I kept counting it as beat 3, but I just counted it out as beginning on beat 4. I assume my second attempt doesn't count. It counts...and is also wrong, though closer then your first attemp. Maybe this would make it more clear. How many thumping sounds occur BEFORE the first Down beat (count 1) occurs?

malakka -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 19:13:13)
Wierd, I had counted 30 "thumps" before, but now put headphones on and counted 31 "thumps". So, now my answer is that it begins on beat 2[8D]

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 17 2012 19:43:19)
quote: ORIGINAL: malakka Wierd, I had counted 30 "thumps" before, but now put headphones on and counted 31 "thumps". So, now my answer is that it begins on beat 2[8D] The number 30 doesn't make sense...it would be either A LOT more if you refer to where the band kicks in....or A LOT less if you go by what I meant that if you count in 4, the very very very FIRST time you must say "1" in order you be on time when the band does come in. Make sense? If you call the thumps 16th notes, then you have only 16 per measure of 4. If you call the thumps 8th notes, then you have only 8 per measure. Either way the concept of where the first time 1 occurs is the same. So we are talking less then 16 or perhaps less then 8 thumps before the first count "1" can occur. Make sense? I prefer to think of them as 16ths because of the way the rest of the song grooves the snare drum on count 2 and 4. So again, how many thumps (less then 16) happen before count 1???

XXX -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 10:45:13)
there are some 2...4 thumps missing for a full cycle in the last compas. So that would be 5 x 16 = 80 - (2...4) So something between 76...78 thumps would be my guess. As for the location of the starting thump, i would say that the last thump ends just one 16th before the 3, so the guitar starts right on 3 [EDIT: i think it may also start one 16th before 3?]? Assuming that is correct, which im not sure of tbh, my calculation would yield something between two 16ths after 3 and right on 4 (since that is wrong im guessing either two or three 16ths after 3). oh please reply quickly Ricardo! I need to know whether i am close [:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 12:11:48)
quote: ORIGINAL: Deniz there are some 2...4 thumps missing for a full cycle in the last compas. So that would be 5 x 16 = 80 - (2...4) So something between 76...78 thumps would be my guess. As for the location of the starting thump, i would say that the last thump ends just one 16th before the 3, so the guitar starts right on 3 [EDIT: i think it may also start one 16th before 3?]? Assuming that is correct, which im not sure of tbh, my calculation would yield something between two 16ths after 3 and right on 4 (since that is wrong im guessing either two or three 16ths after 3). oh please reply quickly Ricardo! I need to know whether i am close [:D] Wow man, that is a lot of math. I just want to see if folks can feel the beat expressed in the intro so that you can count clap or tap foot right on with band when they come in. "Something between 2 16th after 3 and right on 4" is SO close. The right answer is a simple number though. How many thumps BEFORE count 1? Couple of things to clear, which are hints I guess. Oh just saw your edit, NO.[:D] The instrument that you hear play the bass note melody is actually a keyboard with distortion, not a guitar. But I know what you meant. That first note does NOT start ON beat 3, but you are close. The band comes together on ONE with drum crash guitars bass etc. And they all feel the time before that....that is point of this exercise. I said it was a challenge. [:D] Ok one last hint. The note the keyboard starts as a pick up to the entire band coming in (notes are B.....C B then band comes on C) is not beat 3, but a 16th note right after and the first thump of the keyboard intro is not that same timing spot as that note.

XXX -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 13:11:17)
Im trying to tap along to the intro and when the band comes in at 1 i am at 2 already. ALWAYS [:D] Wait, maybe THEY dont feel the beat correctly [:D][:D] well ok "how many thumps before 1" thats another question. I was measuring against the keyboard, but measuring against the band might be easier. Ill do it now. quote: so that you can count clap or tap foot right on with band when they come in with that "pickup" keyboard - no problem. Without that - no way.

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 13:31:26)
quote: Im trying to tap along to the intro and when the band comes in at 1 i am at 2 already. ALWAYS THat is the expected mistake...and the phenomenon experienced at the start of this thread, and is a main problem with timing people have in general....and hence why I chose this as an example. Final hint. If you count Diego's tango the same exact like you count Van Halen (in 4 not 2, so that his arpegio is the same 16ths as the thumping keyboard intro), then the very first Thump of the keyboard corresponds exactly as Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start).

XXX -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 13:42:09)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start). That C# is one 16th before 2 right? ok i make my last bet. Proably i shifted 2 beats and meant 4. I say the first thump in that Van Halen intro is one 16th before 4!!! If thats wrong i give up and stick with Diego's Tangos which i can clap to right from the beginning [:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 13:58:12)
quote: ORIGINAL: Deniz quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start). That C# is one 16th before 2 right? ok i make my last bet. Proably i shifted 2 beats and meant 4. I say the first thump in that Van Halen intro is one 16th before 4!!! If thats wrong i give up and stick with Diego's Tangos which i can clap to right from the beginning [:D] You got it finally man (5 thumps before 1 or ah4e&ah) But I practically gave it away. [:D] I made a video clapping to that Van Halen Intro. I think the interesting thing about rhythm is what happens with the feeling of subdiviision. It is not about counting those thumps 4x4 to keep time, but feeling the phrase. Whenever the phrase doesn't start on the beat, 2 things happen as mistakes to the listener. If the listener has good tempo, then the phrase gets shifted off all the way to a stronger grounding point. The other thing that happens, more common, is the listener or student will express (either clap foot or playing instrument) by rushing or dragging to correspond what they percieve as a heavy beat, even if it was meant to be off the beat. That why people go off compas or can't do palmas etc, cuz they get thrown off track. One final thing. The keyboard thumping is not just a percussive sound that you need to count to come in with the band. Once you lock into the "1" from the start you notice it is actually a melodic bass line phrase that has a very clear beat expression all along. I look at locking in to a groove like this the same as visualizing those 3D computer made pictures where at first glance it is mess until your depth perception orients itself and you finally see the 3D image pop out at you. Some folks are so good at it they can reverse the image so that instead of standing out, it appears to fold inward. Same thing when you hear a phrase shifted off track rhythmically and are able to maintain that feeling in your mind shifted. Posting vid soon

XXX -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 14:05:58)
[:D] i feel released. But above i already stated either two or three 16th after 3 (which the same as one 16th before 4) and you said its close!! So i thought its NOT one of those answers. But then you gave the Diego reference and THAT was actually the thing that made it clear to me. Tricky thing indeed!

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 14:11:58)
quote: feel released. But above i already stated either two or three 16th after 3 (which the same as one 16th before 4) and Well, 2 OR 3 is a WORLD of difference [:D] Ok, but I miss read it as 2nd or 3rd 16th of beat 3, it's the 4th 16th of beat 3, but you didn't count 3 so you would have been correct (if you ONLY said 3 [;)]) Anyway here goes for the vid, I clap loud only 1, the sordas are &2&3&4&. I know just because I made this vid to help, it is still not easy for everyone to do on their own, so I recommend anyone with similar issues practice to this and other similar music that has off beat pick-up phrases.

XXX -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 20:04:44)
Can you do it because you can hear dynamics (ie the beats) in that or because you "know" where the 1 is because you have analized this track and are just accustomed to clapping along to it?

ToddK -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 20:11:29)
Can someone tell me why..... cant this be love??

Ricardo -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 21:08:19)
quote: ORIGINAL: Deniz Can you do it because you can hear dynamics (ie the beats) in that or because you "know" where the 1 is because you have analized this track and are just accustomed to clapping along to it? sort of both. By analized the track it implies I counted it all out etc, but that's not quite what I needed to do. I thought it sounded weird when I played in the car the other day. So I rewind and keep time from the start. What happened was the band kicked in right after 2, or 1e&ah2 E!!!!!....so it was immediately clear I was 5 thumps off from the start. So I listened again to check, that's pretty much all the analysis I needed to do. No counting really rather the feeling of what happened with the band coming off beat 2. ANd as I said earlier at the moment you lock into 1 the thumping sounds more like a bass line melody with clear phrasing of the compas. Ooops, "groove".

malakka -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 18 2012 23:00:28)
Thanks Ricardo, that was an interesting exercise. I certainly made it more difficult by counting each thump and trying to organize them in groups of four. Made it much harder than I needed - over-analysis. Last night I tried a couple of times to just feel the groove - still kept coming in before the 1 when the band kicked in. Listening to the low bass under the thumps is key. I learned a lot form this. Again, thank you.

machopicasso -> RE: Why can't I hear it!? (May 19 2012 8:19:01)
quote: I recommend anyone with similar issues practice to this and other similar music that has off beat pick-up phrases. This was a good exercise. Do you have any other examples of similar music with "off beat pick-up phrases"? I ask, in part, because if you need the practice, then you're probably not in a position to identify relevant examples. [;)]

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