BarkellWH -> RE: Black Hole eats sun (Jul. 16 2022 17:22:23)
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quote:
for "exploration" of Asia and America you could substitute "exploitation". The Portuguese and Spanish were hardly motivated by a quest for "knowledge of the unknown" as the lands they "discovered" weren't unknown to the people that already lived there.... Certainly Columbus was looking for a quick route to India (hence "west indies") to make money from the spice trade, and the Portuguese were also looking for a sea route to India for the same reason, having already established a lucrative slave trade in west Africa even before Vasco de Gama and the "discovery" of Brazil. It is common knowledge that Columbus was searching for a Westward route to India and the spice trade. Neither Columbus, nor the Spanish, nor the Portuguese were on purely scientific expeditions to enhance geographic knowledge, and I did not suggest that they were. Nevertheless, that exploitation of people and resources were involved does not detract from the discoveries they made and the knowledge they brought back to Europe. Historically, the exploitation of people and resources has been a driving force of exploration. They are hardly mutually exclusive, and it certainly did increase knowledge of the unknown at the time, which was necessary for the success of the enterprise. The Indians who came from Siberia across the Bering land bridge settled in what we call North America. But they contributed nothing to knowledge. Columbus made careful note of how he got to the New World, its inhabitants, the flora and fauna, and he paved the way for future exploits. In short, Columbus made the New World available to Europe and increased mankind's understanding of the known world. That is the nature of discovery. The Indians did not explore and discover Europe or any other region, and they had no idea of their place in the World's geography. Theirs was a static, unchanging view of their known world, largely determined by tradition and myth One often hears the trite phrase that one cannot "discover" a land where people already live, but "discovery" requires that the knowledge obtained be transmitted and used for the enhancement of knowledge and further exploration. Columbus was a master mariner and captain. He made four voyages to the New World, and in fact did discover it when he first made landfall in San Salvador in today’s Bahamas. He landed in several areas, including Honduras in Central America. There is some evidence that Leif Erikson landed earlier in Newfoundland, but he did nothing to increase knowledge, which Columbus did, and which is the true result of discovery. And Columbus did it without the benefit of knowing how to determine longitude, a process that wouldn't be available with accuracy until the sea chronometer was developed in the 18th century. Regarding the Indians, they were doing to themselves what Columbus and the Spanish after him did to them. Do not think the Indians were just a group of pastoral people picking daisies. The Mexica (Aztecs) ran an empire in which they required tribute and thousands of sacrificial victims. In fact, Cortes did not conquer the Mexica with his 600 Spaniards alone. He formed an alliance with the Tlaxcalan Indians, who were subjugated by the Mexica, and some 20,000 Tlaxcalans accompanied him to Tenochtitlan to defeat the Mexica. In what is today the US, the Pueblo Indians of the Southwest were attacked and pillaged by the Apache and Navajo. They built their cliff dwellings to escape other Indians' raiding and pillaging. The Comanche raided other Indians and made slaves of many of their captives. The point of all this is not to justify the Spanish (and Portuguese) conquests in the Americas, but to demonstrate that the Indians were no better in their dealings with each other. Distance traveled does not determine morality. Whether the Mexica conquered, demanded tribute, slaves, and sacrificial victims of a neighboring tribe; or Columbus and later Spanish (and Portuguese) explorers conquered, made slaves of, and mistreated the Indians and exploited the resources they encountered after crossing the Atlantic is irrelevant. Both acts are equally morally wrong if they are to be judged by today's standards. Bill
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