is this good singing? (Full Version)

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at_leo_87 -> is this good singing? (Apr. 12 2012 17:13:43)

is this good singing to you?



it seems that in order to impress people as a singer, you have to lose all sense of dynamics and just scream a lot, try to squeeze in as many notes as you can, forget about building suspense or anything like that and just go all out right from the beginning, and basically just do all sorts of vocal acrobatics.

nothing against that girl particularly but it was just an example i could find of how singing seems to be more about showing off rather than making music. and it doesn't just happen on these singing shows, but with established singers as well.

just wanted to get some thoughts on this. am i the only one getting annoyed?




Ricardo -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 12 2012 17:30:09)

not bad for amature singing. But this is a competition you can't compare a performance like this to true emotive performance by a professional experienced vocalist.




at_leo_87 -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 12 2012 17:54:39)

i think the term i was looking for is oversinging.

in competitions, it's the worst of the worst. but i've noticed it with pros too. i'll try to find some vids....




odinz -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 13 2012 21:34:34)

I think I know what you mean, whatever happened to planning the build up, climax and things like that..

My personal opinion is that making things balanced and also showing alot of dynamics is not really fashionable to society today.

I think it is not just singing but music in general.


I have yet to find more than 1 person in my area that has the patience to listen to the nocturnes of Chopin or any opera, or whatever..

In modern music I havent noticed alot of use of extended vibrato, or singers using their full vocal range very well, caring about colour or stuff like that.
But rather about holding a single note over time and keeping the pressure high, I think it makes a sound of power, pride etc. and it is what people want these days.

What ive heard from people themselves is that they dont focus as much on what is going on in the music, they care about if it is catchy or if the voice sounds good(I would often disagree on wether some singers sounds good).
Wich seems to justify to me why songs with almost no lyrics, or very poor ones become best sellers and really popular.

If they want to listen to music that to them sounds powerful they will listen to singers like this, if they want to listen to slower and calm stuff they will often choose singers who almost whispers to the song.

But they oftenly dont like to blend the extremes because it seems confusing to have different emotional inputs in a song, like maybe you would find in older music.

High speed society!

Nothing against any music though, but most people arent musicians and they arent usually as picky.
When I tell people I play guitar, people will often start to talk about Kurt Cobain, Blink 182, nickelback or u2 as if it is the best of the best when it comes to guitarists, I guess what bands/artists people will usually bring up depends on age group but I see a trend that people will believe that whoever is popular or who they listen to are the apex of their instrument(I consider the voice an instrument)

I have nothing against these artists, but when people enthusiastically show me their music an expect me to be impressed by it, it tells me that most people dont know what is impressive, only what they like, and I am fine with that they have the right to like music, I like alot of it too, but I think it is wrong to claim that someone is the apex just because you like it.




estebanana -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 13 2012 23:41:55)

That's what my old girlfriend the opera singer would call a person who fundamentally has a good instrument, but puts on a manufactured style. She can sing, but she over decorates and misses the chances to sing with clarity and then hit it with her dirty sound when she needs it. When singers manufacture the voice, they get confused and miss their natural sound. It's ok to put on a little, but you can't put on all the time.

She's like an erratic driver who does not know how to shift and uses the gas and brakes together. She wants to drive fast and sleek, but her back and forth on the gas pedal to brakes holds her in check to be confused in the seductive envelope of her vocal mannerisms. A good teacher would weed out the vocal clutter to find the core of her instrument.

Good singer, good instrument, too much clutter in the style which in turn creates a poor performance. She just needs someone to sit on her mannerisms and weed them out. Other than that she could sing rock.

Listen to David Lee Roth or one of the other great rock crooners, he manufactures and goofs with his voice, but about 90% of the time delivers in his natural voice with natural presentation. She could do that too.




akatune -> [Deleted] (Apr. 14 2012 4:12:13)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:17:57




at_leo_87 -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 7:24:56)

thanks for the input, guys. some really great thoughts.

quote:

I have yet to find more than 1 person in my area that has the patience to listen to the nocturnes of Chopin or any opera, or whatever..


i admit i dont have the patience to enjoy opera. even some flamenco stuff, i won't always be in the mood for.

but i'm always so surprised to find exactly how, as you said it, "high speed" the rest of society can be.

i wonder what it's going to take to impress or even just keep the attention of the average person in 5 years?

quote:

but I think it is wrong to claim that someone is the apex just because you like it.


i always thought this too. i think the drummer from metallica sucks but just because he's in metallica, there's this halo effect on him.

quote:

She's like an erratic driver who does not know how to shift and uses the gas and brakes together. She wants to drive fast and sleek, but her back and forth on the gas pedal to brakes holds her in check to be confused in the seductive envelope of her vocal mannerisms. A good teacher would weed out the vocal clutter to find the core of her instrument.


that's a really great analogy and can be applied with with anything musical, guitar included.

relating this to flamenco; while i don't really ever see pro flamenco guitar players over play, i sometimes see this with flamenco singers. it's pretty disappointing.

quote:

Good singer, good instrument, too much clutter in the style which in turn creates a poor performance. She just needs someone to sit on her mannerisms and weed them out. Other than that she could sing rock.


what's funny is one of those judges is supposed to be her coach and help her develop her voice and musicality.


quote:

I find that so many musicians have talent but no taste.


great observation. i think technique has the potential to grow at a faster rate than taste and musicality. it's tricky and something we should all think about.

quote:

This is why find myself listeining to less and less pop type music as I mature as a person and learn about music. Less ego ....


i get really annoyed really fast whenever i hear the radio. i tried to find more videos on youtube of over-singers but gave up because i got too annoyed.

edit: when i think of over dramatic pop singers, i think of christina aguilera, beyonce, adele, etc.



she's actually more tame than usual in this. but is herbie overplaying a bit? [8|]




akatune -> [Deleted] (Apr. 14 2012 9:39:21)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:17:38




XXX -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 10:24:39)

Dont bash me, but the way i see is that in flamenco performances, pro or not, it is usually accepted if a singer decides to go into screaming mode. More often than not this is, not exclusively though, when he gets an "ole". Obviously this is the most touchy subject and the main confrontation point between tastes in flamenco and in every other mainstream music. In that context i value comments from people about their own culture/music, who are learning an art that is absurdly far away from their own culture, a bit differently than just an expression of taste.

It should not surprise anybody that such a mainstream competition show does not meet the tastes of flamencos. It doesnt even meet the tastes of many musicians of the same (western) culture anyway. I can only say i wasnt too impressed with the first video. The second one gets me though, and although i would like to blame some clever audio equipment it may be very well just the beauty of her voice.

I agree that mainstream music is nowadays made for kids and teens. I do not agree though that there is no or less room for anything else than in past. You dont need to hear radio. You will find an almost absurd amount of different music and styles in western countries, most of it being worldwide available through the internet of course.

What i find more disturbing is that music is or has become to background music. People who put on music usually dont do it to listen to it, but to do something else. I mean there ARE situations where you want music as background, but if that replaces every dedicated listening then this results in lack of skills in music.




akatune -> [Deleted] (Apr. 14 2012 11:02:43)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:17:19




XXX -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 11:24:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akatune
I've had coworkers come into my office when I'm listeining to Flamenco just to ask, "What the hell are you listeing to? It sounds like a dying cat."


The question is why does such a reaction surprise you? Or why do you feel the need that their reaction should be different?




akatune -> [Deleted] (Apr. 14 2012 11:56:14)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:16:18




XXX -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 15:59:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akatune
What, are you a psychoanalyst?


No, i am as much a psychoanalyst as you or anybody else here has flamenco as his cultural background. I dont find the reaction of your coworker any strange and it is, with a little bit of thinking, easy to understand why. He simply has different tastes. Now you can try to blame that to his level of education because the music industry is watering down the music, but you can do that only so far until you come across somebody highly educated in music and simply not enjoying flamenco.




at_leo_87 -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 16:12:34)

quote:


Dont bash me, but the way i see is that in flamenco performances, pro or not, it is usually accepted if a singer decides to go into screaming mode.


I don't mind screaming. Just not ALL the time. In cd's, the dynamics get compressed and it is what it is. But in real life, when they have the chance to be really dynamic but instead just choose to scream straight from the start until the end, i get bored really fast.




kudo -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 16:44:35)

i agree with you Leo




estebanana -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 14 2012 18:59:37)

Screaming is not flamenco singing, in my opinion. I hate when singers scream. When they scream the golden metallic sound turns in to an awful racket. They just ruin it.

Some mediocre flamenco singers confuse force with projection.

---------

Most pop music today is horrible and over produced, if not over sung. Treacle sells because it's easy to get with. Real music listening often requires work from the listener. Ears are a kind of muscle and they need top be stretched an exersized for them to work at full potential.

I don't worry too much about the demise of music or the good music or music that takes work to understand. When you mention compression in recordings all that does is rob the breath away from music. When someone who has only listened to compressed CD's finally gets in front of a group of people making good music with a dynamic range, they respond. We are too sensitive not to notice on some level that music attracts us and we respond even if we have never heard.

I went to a DJ concert a few week ago, and that is unusual for me, but I came away thinking ok this is good, a mixture of live playing ( on guitar clarinet, flute drums) and some one spinning records and sampling. The sound was big and vibrant Almost symphonic, but not as complex or multi faceted, but it did have much more than canned compressed sound of a slick pop CD. I thought of this as a gateway drug, (music) to really listening, it's not a large step from this to a jazz band or some large ensemble making complex music.

I think as was mentioned the music biz is watering down music and packaging it to be easy to consume. But I never lose the idea that most people who get exposed to music search out much more than pop music. We are too complex, I know most musicians wince and turn off bad pop because it is offensive to them. But the average non musician will listen to that stuff and still seek out other music, much of it live.

Good music is really stronger than it ever has been. More classical music is being played today than ever before and its being accepted world wide. In Beethoven's day in Vienna only the rich could afford his music in the home or a concert. More jazz is being played, more Indian music, more flamenco, etc.

The sadness is not in how many people misunderstand music today or are not educated to listen to a wide swath of good music; The sad part is that the technology we use to spread music around has changed and the music industry has adapted it's least common denominator pop music formula to this change. In past years when music was spread by radio or records and not digitally we could hear new music together as a society. The music on the radio was more cutting edge and we heard it together as a culture. Everyone heard the same thing on the radio, everyone heard The Beatles together, everyone heard Motown records together. Everyone heard New Order or Joy Division or Bauhaus or David Bowie- and we all heard Disco together.

The good and the not so good were all on display at the same time to be contrasted and absorbed. You could hear Rod Stewart singing a disco song like 'Do you think I'm sexy' and Roberta Flack singing 'Killing me Softly' on the same radio station back to back. This would never happen today on commercial radio. There was a time when this happened and you could hear the difference in quality and level of artistry in public as a culture. We all knew why Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' is the best selling jazz record of all time. They played it on the radio even after rock took over jazz as a mainstream music on radio.

Now we have a "reality culture" where people want to be part of discovering new talent. It's almost a from of narcissim and would certainly be were it not for the problem that the public in general has been robbed of it's collective critical ear because we can't hear Roberta Flack next to Rod Stewart on the radio anymore. The listening public has been fed on wall to wall musical baby food, the bland crushed peas and carrots of music in the form of watered down soul, hip hop and rock music. Or the overrated over amped, under whelming music that is featured in cars which sound like they are shaking apart due to the bass response of *dumb *dumb *dumb *mind amplifiers. You know the cars with vibrating trunks which you can hear three blocks away?

The wonderful thing is that good music has sort of gone underground and it flourishes. By that I mean that we don't have good musics as a common cultural language that we talk about. It has been driven underground out of public ear shot by the commercial music industry. Most of the time we suffer though the collective music in public and secretly yearn for our favorite sub culture musics. It's become a world of specialties and the specialties in good music are just under the surface of ego spectacle like American Idol and your nearest vibrating trunk.

* steps off soap box, walk to the bar for a beer *




Richard Jernigan -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 15 2012 3:29:42)

I've spent a few weeks in Bali from time to time over the last twenty years. Tourism has become bigger and bigger, but the Balinese culture survives and adapts.

On my first trip I made friends with my cab driver. On my second trip I took a guitar. He asked me to play. Then he took me to rehearsal of the gamelan of Bangli. The town was the seat of one of the seven kings of Bali before the Dutch showed up. it is still conscious of its status as a cultural center. My cab driver was a respected member of the orchestra while still in his twenties.

The only person in the gamelan who makes his living from music is the guru. The rest of the twenty-odd members pay dues to defray the expenses of maintaining the instruments, travel, the guru's wage. They do it out of a love for music, and also out of civic pride. A town without a good orchestra would be shamed.

The guru composes the pieces and teaches them to the members. The pieces are as long and complex as an early Mozart symphony. Bangli is not really on the tourist circuit, so the audience there is largely local. People from all walks of life flock to the concerts, the dance performances and the temple ceremonies where the orchestra provides the music. They take great pride in their orchestra. They follow the annual contest among various town orchestras from all over the island with the enthusiasm of European football fans.

There is a greater production of music, dance, painting, sculpture and architecture in Bali than in any of the other fifty-odd countries I have visited, and by a very wide margin. There are very few professional artists in any genre. The man who carves a new sculpture for the village temple is likely to be a rice farmer.

Not only is there a much higher production of all art forms in Bali, but it is of a much higher quality. That's because the artists are in charge, and they perform for the people, not for wealth and fame.

In old time economics there was Gresham's Law. When the king ran short of money, he might resort to debasing the coins, putting in less gold or silver. The good coins would soon disappear from circulation as people hoarded them. Gresham's Law was "Bad money drives out good."

In a mass consumption capitalist society where art is made into a commodity, bad art drives out good. You can make more money pushing out trash at the lowest common denominator, and hypnotizing consumers into buying it, than you can make by letting the artists work to turn out good stuff. At least that's what the "music business" thinks.

Real art, relevant to the people, may bubble up irresistibly from time to time, like the big band swing music of the 1930s in America, or rock 'n roll in the 1960s, when the music actually meant something. But the commercial interests soon overwhelm it and resume churning out mass produced crap like the tin-pan alley schlock of the 1950s or most of today's pop music in the USA.

It's what happens when you make art into a commodity to be sold like a shirt or a stick of chewing gum.

There are positive trends today. The corporations used to control the means of production and distribution of music. Now with a few thousand bucks worth of equipment and the internet artists are taking control of their work. That's got to be a good thing.

Meanwhile the "music business" flops about like a beached and dying whale, trying to buy legislation, clinging to the past as hard as it can.

As Dylan sang, with acid disdain:

"And you know something's happening but you don't know what it is
do you, Mr. Jones?"

RNJ




Ricardo -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 15 2012 14:24:41)

Ok lots of points made off the main topic which was if a certain singing style was "good" or just showing off. At any singing critics I got not probs once I hear how you are singing. Just like in guitar playing if you can simply demo how you think it should be done to your taste it would say a lot.

In the end regarding pop music and singing in general now a days....man I am simply impressed at any singer that is not autotuned anymore.

Ricardo




estebanana -> RE: is this good singing? (Apr. 15 2012 17:34:57)

This one is going out to Ricardo..........





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