Bending of the top? (Full Version)

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Rmn -> Bending of the top? (Mar. 22 2012 16:10:21)

Lately I have been putting my guitar in a closed case after playing and I noticed a lot of difference in playability.
When I take the guitar out again (especially after a longer period like one day) then I notice a change in the pulsation. There is much less tension on the strings, which I like a lot because that inspires me to play even more. Although, when I play for a couple of hours, the tension on the strings returns.
(Q1)Why is this like that? (Q2)Does it have to do with the humidity, that if the guitar is in the case it preserves its humidity? I interpreted that it has to do with the bending of the top. (Q3)How does that the bending of the top work (like when there is more humidity the top will be larger or shrinks).
The more important question for me: (Q4)how can I keep the guitar being soft all the time?
Today I put a Dampit inside the guitar. That is a kind of sponge for instruments to keep them humid. Let's see how that is going to work.
I hated my guitar for a long time because of the tension. The bridge is as low as posible, and other players like this stiffness of the guitar, but I love a guitar that is soft. I know it has to do with technique and force in the hands. But I could never imagine myself liking a stiff guitar ever. I like it when it's "mold-able" nice for a lot of ligados and a lot of pulgar!
Thanks!



Rmn -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 23 2012 13:24:34)

any one?
thanks



keith -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 23 2012 16:29:53)

Ok, I will take a stab. First of all a little science is in order. Keep a journal book nearby and log the humidity and temperature when you pull out your guitar to play. This will give you an idea if environmental factors have an influence and if so, how the guitar responds. Some guitars will have a sound change depending on the humidity and/or temp. Be sure to keep two variables constant--same guitar, same brand of strings.

Along with documenting environmental factors write your general impression of the sound/pulsation when you first pull out the guitar and then when the guitar is humming along at the level you like. I mention this variable as some guitars seem to need some warm up time. David George wrote in his book, The Flamenco Guitar, of a guitar that needed several minutes of playing to get roaring. Does wood need warm up time? I will defer to luthiers on that one but it might make sense.

As to your idea about the top bending that I have no clue. The above variables are something you can manipulate and/or control and may have an impact on pulsation. If the above variables prove to have no impact on the pulsation then there may be another variable unknown and/or unmeasureable by a second party (i.e., perception).



Dave K -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 24 2012 17:29:36)

To answer Q4, you could tune down half or whole step and then capo up. Not all guitars respond well to this tactic, but you could try it and see.
Cheers, Dave



Ricardo -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 24 2012 17:37:30)

Sounds more like action ie neck bending if you feel it with ligados but i guess top sinking can also do it. If your guitar was built in Valencia (closer to the water then Madrid) good chance that is why the dramatic change cuz wood wants more humidity then dryness. Conversly guitars that prefer dry climate star buzzing and lose brightness in more humid conditions



Rmn -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 25 2012 9:12:49)

Thanks for the answers

Keit:
quote:

Ok, I will take a stab. First of all a little science is in order. Keep a journal book nearby and log the humidity and temperature when you pull out your guitar to play. This will give you an idea if environmental factors have an influence and if so, how the guitar responds. Some guitars will have a sound change depending on the humidity and/or temp. Be sure to keep two variables constant--same guitar, same brand of strings.
what kind of instruments do you recommend to measure the humidity and the temperature? could you post a link to these? and should i measure the temperature and the humidity inside the guitar when its in the case? or outside? or just of the environment?

quote:

As to your idea about the top bending that I have no clue. The above variables are something you can manipulate and/or control and may have an impact on pulsation. If the above variables prove to have no impact on the pulsation then there may be another variable unknown and/or unmeasureable by a second party (i.e., perception).
how could i manipulate or control these factors?

Davek:
quote:

To answer Q4, you could tune down half or whole step and then capo up. Not all guitars respond well to this tactic, but you could try it and see.
Cheers, Dave
that for me is not an option. the sound becomes terrible then. plus I dont need that huge change in pulsation. just a little.

Ricardo
quote:

Sounds more like action ie neck bending if you feel it with ligados but i guess top sinking can also do it. If your guitar was built in Valencia (closer to the water then Madrid) good chance that is why the dramatic change cuz wood wants more humidity then dryness. Conversly guitars that prefer dry climate star buzzing and lose brightness in more humid conditions

Thanks for indirectly replying to my Q3. So I understand from when you say "top sinking" that when its more dry, the top will shrink and go a bit down, and thats when there will be more tension on the strings?
the neck has two titanium sticks in it, so it shouldnt bend too much i think.
my guitar is a higher lever valeriano bernal. it was built in quite higher atmosphere (Algodonales) than here (Sevilla). i dont know what the difference in humidity is between these two different places.

any one else more thoughts about a good way to keep the tension a bit lower.
its kind of amazing. everytime i feel the guitar has built this higher tension, i just put it back in the case for 15 minutes with a cloth on the sound hole and when i take it of, the pulsation will be different. its a mystery...



Jeff Highland -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 25 2012 9:56:11)

Is the case too tight, pushing down on the bridge?



Rmn -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 25 2012 10:50:55)

quote:

Is the case too tight, pushing down on the bridge?

hmm, i dont think so. not entirely sure. but the case closes without forcing and there is enough space to not press on the bridge



keith -> RE: Bending of the top? (Mar. 26 2012 12:53:10)

Rmn--you can buy small digital hygrometers and can place one inside of the guitar case and if really want an accurate reading you can drop the hygrometer inside of the belly of the guitar. this can be done by glueing a piece of string onto the hygrometer so you can drop it inside side the belly and pull it out using the string--this may be overkill though as putting the hygrometer inside the case should work. you can also put a hygrometer in the room where you play.

hygrometers will address the humidity question. for temperature you use a thermometer and many digital hygrometers also measure temperature. adjusting humidity and temperature is pretty obvious although reducing humidity, say in the summer months, may require a de-humidifier (a room variety and/or an in-case variety (check out a product called EVA DRY).

these small digital hygrometers/thermometers can be purchased as Stringsbymail or a cigar store or a variety of other places. SBM has some nice ones for little money.

make sure you calibrate the hygrometer. a good method is to get a zip lock bag (or an air tight container) and place the hygrometer inside along with a cap to a milk container that is filled with salt and a few drops of water--you do not want to dissolve the salt into a slurppy mix). seal up the bag and wait 6 hours. the hygrometer should read 75%. if it does not there are two things you can do. if the hygrometer has an adjusting screw adjust it so that it reads 75% just moments after pulling it out of the zip lock bag and then repeat the next day to verify the adjustment. if the hygrometer does not have an adjustment screw then you will need to remember the variance from 75% and add or substract from future readings--that is, if the hygrometer reads 80% then you know it reads 5 points high so you will need to subtract 5 points when you take future readings.

note: digital hygrometers are not 100% accurate but are close enough for most of us--if they are off by a few points that is not super critical as we are looking for ballpark figures not figures required for NASA.



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