I knew I would strike a nerve with someone out there when I made my statements....
Actually, Rumbaking, you didn't strike a nerve in me at all. I'm not mindlessly defending classical against flamenco. In fact, I think I indicated that I do not take a back seat to anyone in my love and appreciation of flamenco. But it seems to me that each of the comparisons you made (tremolo, rest strokes/free strokes, timing, etc.) do not support your position. They are executed differently in each genre, but I don't see that they are more "advanced" in flamenco. Take the tremolo, for example. To tell you the truth, I find it easier to execute a steady flamenco tremolo than I do a classical tremolo. But whether its easier or harder to execute (depending on the guitarist), the use of an additional stroke in the flamenco tremolo does not make it more "advanced."
Cheers,
Bill
Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 19 2012 21:33:01)
[Deleted by Admins]
mezzo -> RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical guitarist (Mar. 19 2012 21:33:57)
Is there cante or dance accomp in classical guitar field? Comparing the virtuosity of classical vs flamenco... So talking just in term of solo?
Sensitive topic we have been over in the past. I am the son of two classical guitarists that both had direct contact with Segovia himself. I feel about it like this. There are general misconceptions about flamenco, but when it comes to classical guitarists, perhaps because the instrument is so similar and the technique approach as well, and even some musical elements (Albeniz granados Rodrigo Sanz Sor Falla etc...Spanish comosers) the same types of misconceptions somehow become more annoying. [:D]
Generally I find Classical guitarists want a certain tone and avoid a lot of the sounds that a flamenco guitarist makes...buzzing, nails, bright attacking arps, clicking pulgar, etc. These sounds are very harsh and considered mistakes of technique to the classical guitarists ear, yet they don't consider the effort it takes to actually achieve a proper flamenco sound. The truth is the guitar is sort of unique in the sense it has SO many different disciplines for achieving the right sound, be it rock jazz, gypsy hot jazz, Brazilian, classical, flamenco, blues, etc etc. Nylon string guitar can be used in different ways, but most people freak out if they hear a guy use a pick on it like say Mclaughlin or Dimeola do, complaining of ****ty tone and only nails must be used. Its a funny thing about guitar.
Anyway, I feel that the classical guitarists that are sort of curious about flamenco don't really understand the musical purpose of what its about and think that its all about "tricks". That is sort of irritating even though if you think about it, all guitar styles have "tricks" as part of the technique, and that's how you achieve the proper sound for whatever genre.
I leave you with this bit of light humor that I made the last time this argument came up on foro. Bream has just complained about nails and fact that tone suffers if you put glue on your nails. But says it doesn't matter about refinement of sound because he has to play for dancers! LOL Peña gracefully points out he does worry about tone but won't ever achieve HIS (breams) sound....thanks to GOD!!!!! LOL:
El Kiko -> RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical guitarist (Mar. 20 2012 13:48:32)
My Older brother too is a classical guitarist , and very good I think , . yes he spends a lot of time getting a good tone ... It means that the kind of guitars that are flamenco , loud and brash , are not really to his taste , although he has no problem trying them out for a while. Maybe he would like a negra better. ,, It's just the kind of sound he his aiming for is a more "round " kind of sound . However he listens to Pepe Romero and the like quite a bit , there are some guitarists that are sort of on the border between classical and Flamenco ... He does admire the skill of all the great flamenco players , and always says things like , " they must have nails made out of steel " when you come to those big picado runs or crazy rasguerdos ... It's just what you want to get out of it .. I dont think any rational , and reasonably intelligent peorson would ..."think flamenco guitarists are inferior to their skills, taste and also inferior quality of their guitars...." as mentioned in the first post . however some do see the music as being a bit limited as the classical guiatarist can draw upon a bigger range of influences, composers , and history . etc .. they may see flamenco as being a bit too much "phrygian " for there tastes .... Maybe I should ask him to write here.............??
I am trained classically for the past few years, it was my main instrument during school, though I am dropping a higher education because I want to go to Spain and learn flamenco properly instead.. It is not because I think flamenco is the superior art form, I just really love flamenco and want to learn it properly. But I will not stop playing classical guitar because of it, I think I will become stronger at both styles if I learn about them both.
And also it is a bit unfair to compare the styles like this, especially if you are comparing virtuosic tendencies or technical skill, because that is an induvidual thing.
I have seen classical players who are far better players than many flamenco guitarists, and vice versa. And if you look at some of the guitarists considered top players in each style, they can probably play stuff from the other styles as well.
But I definatly see benefits to knowing stuff from different styles though!
El Kiko -> RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical guitarist (Mar. 20 2012 20:13:07)
quote:
though I am dropping a higher education because I want to go to Spain
You really shouldnt do that , I know it is cool to do it , I lived in Spain for over 10 years but it was after I had all my studies done and had worked for a while ,, you will need as many certificates as you can get for the future ,,,,I know I sound like someones Dad . . . . .
I mean higher education in classical guitar... I really just want to have a good time, experience stuff and I dont want to have any regrets about what I didnt do..[8D]
I am still going to take an education, but I am almost drowning in stuff to do allready. So it will be educating more later, and it isnt like I am running out of time or anything either. My girlfriend is joining me as well.
It is cool to have someone who sounds like a father, you dont sound like my father though, he would just beat me up or something, Thanks for the consern man[:)]
Bottom line, I am doing it to become a better guitarist, better musician and so on..
I dont think one can say this style vs that style, it is more productive saying both styles are awesome![:)]
I was hanging out with a classical guitar professor and we talked about the subject. I think we both agreed that the music a classical guitarist has to draw upon is much larger in scope. What he thought solo flamenco guitar emphasized was virtuosity and expression of a specific culture, while a classical guitarist can interpret all the greatest composers regardless of nationality or style. It's apples and oranges for sure. As far as flamenco being harder, or more advanced, I doubt that's true. They are both hard as hell. I think an education in music history, theory, etc, is clearly more important for a classical player, but that's changing quickly.
over the last few years, i've been surrounded by classical guitarist. i have a ton of respect for what they can do. i've been very impressed by what i've seen/heard. however, for as much as i love flamenco, i found it strange that most of them had very little interest in it. i remember one telling me he thought it was boring because it seemed like everything was just the phrygian scale. another one said he didn't really like it because it was too easy.
i, personally, think classical guitar is soooo boring. i even like classical music and listen to it regularly. there's just something about a classical guitarist's tone that puts me to sleep. i've tried to grow a taste for classical guitar, but the sound and the way it's played does nothing for me. it's the reason i never had any interest in learning nylon string guitar before moving to spain.
all things aside, i think we can all agree there's nothing worse than hearing a strictly classical guitarist attempt to play flamenco.
keith -> RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical guitarist (Mar. 21 2012 8:33:14)
I would not be surprized if we overheard 100 conversations among violinists that some would say violin is THE instrument and the guitar is poo-poo and others would say they have respect for the instrument and so on and so on. Likewise, I am sure if we overheard 100 conversations among any group we would hear the same about "those others". That is human nature.
It is curious the starter of this thread did not capitalize the first word of the sentence, flemenco (sic) yet chose to capitalize the word, classical.
akatune -> [Deleted] (Mar. 21 2012 9:44:45)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:14:21
The professor was over my house for a party and brought his guitar-he wanted to jam. He said he really didn't improvise, but knew how it was done. I thought that was very strange. I wondered what we could possibly play together. I could play rhythm for him, but what would he do? Run the appropriate scales? I certainly couldn't play any of the things he would normally play. I'm pretty sure anything he did would sound pretty good-the guy has a rep. We decided to practice some jazz tunes and then play together another time. So, I got drunk.
quote:
ORIGINAL: akatune
I think another factor seperating the two genres are the memorization vs. improvisation aspect. Classical guitarists do not typically improvise a whole lot. They play pieces. A decent flamenco player must improvise. Even a lower level flamenco player can improvise, although maybe out of compas. But it's almost like flamenco calls out for the player to do so. I can't remember the last time I saw a classical guitarist bust out a whole new section of an old standard classical piece.
Also, Melody vs. rhythm might be a factor. Of course classical is played in rhythm, but it is essentially harmonic and melodic. Maybe the classical players just aren't into the intense rhythm of flamenco.
I was hanging out with a classical guitar professor and we talked about the subject. I think we both agreed that the music a classical guitarist has to draw upon is much larger in scope. What he thought solo flamenco guitar emphasized was virtuosity and expression of a specific culture, while a classical guitarist can interpret all the greatest composers regardless of nationality or style. It's apples and oranges for sure. As far as flamenco being harder, or more advanced, I doubt that's true. They are both hard as hell. I think an education in music history, theory, etc, is clearly more important for a classical player, but that's changing quickly.
You guys have some serious issue with Ruben huh? =P
HAHA, I'll get drunk with Ruben too if he comes over. We have a pretty good shindig every December. I feel a bit weird about naming the classical prof on the net. His son went to high school with my daughter and he's been over a few times. He teaches at a few colleges here in SF and is a very cool guy. He was really interested in the fact that I had played for dance. I think he has played for ballet in some ensembles so I guess that is part of his interest.
As an aside, when I was in SFSU in the late 70's I auditioned for classical guitar lessons. They only had one teacher and she could only take a few students. It was extremely competitive. Same with the jazz band-50 jazz players trying for three spots. In my second semester I somehow convinced the jazz teacher I deserved the third spot, so I figured why not go for broke and try to get the classical lessons.
I never had any classical lessons, but had a book of Bach solos for violin that I used to practice reading. I learned one of them, doing my own fingerings, and played it for the audition. She wanted to kill me when she saw my fingerings. She said my teacher should be taken out and quietly shot. I liked the "quietly" part. Since I had no teacher, I guess she thought I should be quietly killed for having the audacity to play what I did. A year later I left college to go on the road with a show band. I missed out on a lot leaving college, but I never missed that classical guitar playing witch.
Paul Magnussen -> RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical guitarist (Mar. 21 2012 21:05:36)
quote:
She wanted to kill me when she saw my fingerings. She said my teacher should be taken out and quietly shot. I liked the "quietly" part. Since
Michael Chapdelaine’s first claim to fame was being thrown out of Segovia’s Master Class for changing his fingerings.
As to Segovia’s famous remarks about having "rescued" the instrument from flamenco guitarists, we should remember that he was trying to get the guitar recognised as a serious instrument, and its status and that of Flamenco were both very low in those days. Possibly that excuses him to some extent: to exactly what extent, I wouldn’t care to say.
Personally I think a lot of it may have been jealousy.
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen As to Segovia’s famous remarks about having "rescued" the instrument from flamenco guitarists, we should remember that he was trying to get the guitar recognised as a serious instrument, and its status and that of Flamenco were both very low in those days. Possibly that excuses him to some extent: to exactly what extent, I wouldn’t care to say.
