Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Full Version)

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El Polaco -> Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 13:19:13)

Hello everyone!

My decades long desire for making guitars now brings me here to the lutherie section of the forum!
I lived in spain for number of years and spent quite a bit of time in the workshop of Antonio Marin in Malaga (don't know if he is still alive) just hanging out as a 20 yr old flamenco aficionado. I must say that I felt so at home and comfortable in that workshop that i promised myself that I would one day make my own guitars.
I had a bit of a gift for clean precise woodworking skills even in high school and I am now in a place in my life where I can move forward with that lifelong desire.
I have started my list of books to get and equipment to buy and would like any recommendations for books that help with flamenco guitar construction in particular. Are Irving Sloane and Bogdanovich good general construction books?
I know beginners can be annoying with silly questions so reading good material will hopefully limit that.
I have quite a few top class and historic flamenco guitars that I will be able to study the construction details of. It that something that is useful or not necessarily?

Any guidance will be most appreciated!

Gracias,
Jorge.



johnguitar -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 13:41:43)

Your guitar collection could be useful but you need to know what to look for. It is very hard to reverse engineer a guitar unless you are very familiar with construction processes in general, especially traditional ones. In any case these guitars will inspire you and give you a comparison for the guitars you make. Speaking of Marin, Antonio Marin is in Granada- still working and Jose Luis Marin worked in Malaga. I don't know anything about him.

John Ray
Granada



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 13:53:33)

Thank you John!
Making a mold using an existing guitar is ok to do?
I particularly like the mold and shape of Faustino Conde seems different from other early Conde molds. Do you know if faustino and Mariano shared molds or did they each have their own?

Jorge.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 14:20:02)

Just looked at your guitars and listened too!

You are a seasoned Andaluz Guitarrero John! I love the tone, balance, depth, snap as well as the finish and appearance. Most beautiful!!!

So how long will it take me to get there? lol

Jorge.



Sean -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 14:42:53)

Sloane book is dated and the whole building a giant trough to boil your sides in thing is not done by any sane people today. The Bogdanovich book from what I hear will have you building jigs for the next year or so, better off learning the traditional techniques first. The Cumpiano and Courtnall books probably have better info on construction techniques and tools but you won't find much Flamenco specific info in any books. Grab one of these books, maybe a Barbero plan so you know what sorta ballpark you will be playing in dimensions wise, use the search tool here for Flamenco specific info and ask questions when needed. Once you get the construction part down you can start to learn from sifu experience.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 17 2012 16:44:17)

Thanks Sean for the help! Sounds scary to soak wood that you have carefully seasoned and dried in order to bent it! - and I don't even know anything yet! :)

As for being high tech with your workshop, it seems like you could distract yourself with a shop full of fancy tools custom designed for every conceivable task instead of starting with more basic tried and tested tools and methods and starting to create sawdust as soon as possible.

J.



Flamingrae -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 18 2012 18:33:55)

quote:

The Cumpiano and Courtnall books probably have better info on construction techniques


These are a couple of good books. Check some of the tools needed and then add as you need and can afford. Either the Barbero or a Santo plan is even simpler to start. It helps to have machinery, but a bit of determination and good sharp tools will see you most of the way. Plan a bit, then get on with it - life is too short.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 18 2012 19:34:09)

Well, I have had the whole weekend to mull over things and have read lots here on the Lutherie section and the consensus it to just get started. So this week it shall be... I am getting wood, a few more tools and off I go... Zoikes!!!

Wish me luck and I'll be back very soon!!! lol.



keith -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 22 2012 16:23:07)

i am not a luthier but have, off and on for several years, watched a local luthier build guitars and would recommend the following: have good work working skills, patience, appropriate tools, jigs and forms if you decide to make more than one guitar (as in doing it for a profession), know how to incorporate the important angles (neck, head, break, and i am sure there is probably another one or two). and, most importantly, learning how to get the desired tone from the wood in your hands. this last component is something a person learns only be doing and under the guidance of someone who knows the art. one can read a book, work a tool and do just about everything else but knowing how to use the wood to birth a quality guitar is an art which i doubt can be taught in a book.

by the way, the bogdanovich is pretty good with lots of pictures. as a previous poster noted, there are a lot of jigs in his life but he builds guitars for a living so in the long run those jigs are time savers.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 23 2012 13:10:56)

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions!
I am collecting tools and preparing a space that I have for my workshop. It is pretty dry but I will have a dehumidifier to help
stabalize moisture. I plan to hang a hygrometer and watch things before I bring any wood down.
Those angled chisels are expensive aren't they? Got the 5/8 carving blade that LMI sells - will that do the job of the angled chisel? I am going shopping for more stuff today.
I saw Felipe Conde using those dryer hose type clips with wooden toggles at the ends instead of any other type of clamp for sides/back assembly. Is that good enough for starters?

Right now I have:

Table saw,
Plunge router and table,
Trim router, (
Jig saw, (no band saw yet)
Planes, 6" and 10"
Some non beveled edge chisels,
Some bar clamps and a few C clamps.
8" back saw,
Coping saws,
Power mitre saw,
At tail and half round files,
Circle cutter,
Straight edges, squares etc.
Micrometer,
Honing gauge and stones.

New:
Deep throat clamp from LMI
Scrapers,
5/8 carving blade,
Fret hammer,
Needle file set,

Need help with chisels and gouges. Is the kind of steel very important?
Looking for a band saw and drill press on Craigslist right now. How thick of a cut must the bandsaw manage?
Got a nice wood workbench yesterday from freight harbor tools for $159. http://www.harborfreight.com/60-inch-solid-oak-workbench-93454.html.

Your help is greatly appreciated!!!

Hasta la proxima!

Jorge.



Sean -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 23 2012 14:18:01)

A drill press is more important, you will be surprised how many things can be done on it, I can't imagine making bridges without one. If you go the powered circle cutter route skip anything that uses a dremel, it will never give you a perfect circle the bit wanders.
Save some money axe the jigsaw, power mitre saw, micrometer, plunge router and table. If you're planning on doing any re sawing invest in a suitable bandsaw then you can skip the table saw.



Gimar Yestra -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 23 2012 15:41:10)

try to find some japanese laminated steel chissels, they come in various models and prices, even the cheaper ones are realy good, compared to whatever super steel other makers claim to use

do you have any experience with handplanes etc? these things never come ready for use and always need fine tuning and they mostly need some leveling aswell.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 24 2012 13:50:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Polaco

Right now I have:

Table saw,
Plunge router and table,
Trim router, (
Jig saw, (no band saw yet)
Planes, 6" and 10"
Some non beveled edge chisels,
Some bar clamps and a few C clamps.
8" back saw,
Coping saws,
Power mitre saw,
At tail and half round files,
Circle cutter,
Straight edges, squares etc.
Micrometer,
Honing gauge and stones.

New:
Deep throat clamp from LMI
Scrapers,
5/8 carving blade,
Fret hammer,
Needle file set,

Need help with chisels and gouges. Is the kind of steel very important?
Looking for a band saw and drill press on Craigslist right now. How thick of a cut must the bandsaw manage?

Jorge.

The only other stationary tool you might consider is a jointer. In combination with your table saw it's an enormous time saver. Any good quality 14 or 16 inch band saw will work. Depth of cut is fairly unimportant since it's nearly impossible to make accurate deep cuts on anything other than a resaw. If you have the room and want to spend the money an ocillating spindle sander, disk sander, thickness sander, resaw and planer would complete your already well appointed shop.

I have a large assortment of chisels and find that I don't use anything other than 1/8 through 3/4 inch straight along with a 2 and 4 mm straight. You might consider a good pocket knife as well. I've never owned a fret hammer, carving blade?, or needle file set nor felt the need of them. Get lots of "C" clamps of all sizes.

When I started making guitars the only power tools I had were a belt sander, router and table saw. I sawed tops, backs and sides by hand and worked them down with hand tools. If you're patient you can build a guitar with little more than a pocket knife, block plane, a few chisels and a couple of hand saws but it appears you already have a very nice shop so forge ahead and have fun.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 24 2012 15:48:56)

Thanks for all the great info John!!
I'm in as fine woodworking store right now and Have a bunch of pfeil beveled chisels in my cart. You said straight chisels in your reply. Should I change them or will I need some of each type?
Which gouges should I get and what sweep do I need? Bogdanovich says 30mm # 3 and 5 as well as 12mm #7. Don't want to wast money when they are over $50 a piece! :)

Thanks very much again!!!

Jorge.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 24 2012 16:41:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Polaco

Thanks for all the great info John!!
I'm in as fine woodworking store right now and Have a bunch of pfeil beveled chisels in my cart. You said straight chisels in your reply. Should I change them or will I need some of each type?
Which gouges should I get and what sweep do I need? Bogdanovich says 30mm # 3 and 5 as well as 12mm #7. Don't want to wast money when they are over $50 a piece! :)

Thanks very much again!!!

Jorge.

They're probably all useful. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a tool just because I had a few extra dollars and ended up wondering how I got along without it for so many years. I don't own any gouges. All you really need is a few basic chisels and maybe a draw knife although I haven't used my draw knife in many years. I've never paid more than $8-$10 for a chisel and I can easily shave the hair on my arm with any of the ones I have (I like Marples and Stanley).



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 25 2012 17:32:21)

You dont need gouges for making flat top instruments.
Pfeil chisels are nice and I prefer them over japanese chisels. As John says, you ver few. I use 2, 4, 6 and 20mm. I have more but I dont really need them.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 25 2012 19:13:21)

Thanks Anders!
Does that mean I have to return the 3, 5 and 16 I just got yesterday? LOL!
I have 90 day refund so I'll have them order the 2, 6 and 20 for me. They were out of the 20 yesterday.

Can I just use the Dozuki saws now instead of the little gentlemens back saws from Sheffield? I'm a Yorkshire man by birth so that might hurt a bit but I only have the larger 8" dovetail one so far from the past.
Got a pelican flexcut knife and spokeshave today.

The 14" band saw I inquired about on Craiglslist just emailed me back and it is still available! $100 - I'm outta here!

Later and thanks again guys!

Jorge.



Gimar Yestra -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 10:43:56)

maybe it's me, but it seems you are a bit too obsessed with all the tools you might need at this point.

the first few steps in guitar making require not more than a handplane to join and thickness your top, back and sides, level and square neckblank, joining the heel and headstock.

im not trying to tell you how you should do things, not all all, but i think you will find what tools might be usefull to you once you are building. I know from experience that i bought tools because i tought i needed them, and sofar i have never touched them.

just my 2 cents [:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 11:28:52)

I agree with Gimar

My first I made with VERY few tools. I had 2 chisels (2 and 10mm), a sharpening stone, a drill press, a hammer, a benchplane, a rasp, a saw, a level, a square and few other things. It still plays wonderfull. I made some simple home made tools during the build. A bending iron and a circlecutter for my no brand dremel copy. I still use these homemade tools now nearly 100 guitars later and the cheap dremel copy is still alive and doing well but its only used for routing for the rosettes and cutting the soundhole.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 12:51:16)

Thanks and I really appreciate all your comments and suggestions about which tools are most useful to start out with.
When I walked into a fine woodworking store on Saturday I almost fell down and my mouth dropped open! There was a wall about 20' long by about 10 feet high with only chisels! I drank a couple of complimentary cups of coffee and sat down for a few minutes and pulled out my notes from you guys and realized that this had to start out simple!
I nixed Bogdanovich's tool suggestions almost completely. I bought 5 chisels which i have returned 2 of already.
I am finishing up my workspace that had some moisture issues hence my delay in starting - Trust me, I am dying to start cutting and I shall before the week is out!
I pick up the Cournall book from my P.O. box this morning - sounds like he is the most methodical in his build procedure.

I will be working in a medieval torture chamber. Should I have left the shackles, chains and rack on the walls for my own self flagellation purposes? :)

Lighting suggestions?

J.





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jshelton5040 -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 14:29:06)

I think your shop space looks really comfortable and I love the arch and the tall ceilings.

Fluorescent lighting takes less electricity than spots. We use the 4' four tube variety supplimented by those clamp-on articulated magnifying lamps on each bench. I do have six spot lights each on it's own switch for bad eye days. It's also nice to have a halogen spot or two for finishing since it gives you a more natural light.

I suspect you're going to be working the dehumidifier constantly.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 18:42:52)

ok, these photos made me think serious... What about humidity control?
You can buy the most funky tools in the world and end up with a warped guitar if you dont control humidity.



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 26 2012 21:44:26)

Looks bad but it is actually dry and warm usually. It was an unused space I have had for years until the guitar making bug got a hold of me recently. Those pictures were taken last week after a lot of heavy rain for days with a broken sump pump.! I have fixed everything since I decided to use it as my workshop and the hygrometer is dropping day by day and is under 60% already. There is a furnace, AC unit and 2 hot water heaters in the adjoining room that help keep the place warm and dry.

I am spray painting the whole interior with exterior wall sealer tomorrow top to bottom and will keep a dehumidifier handy just in case afterwards.
Should the humidity be kept at about 50% or less?

I hope to start setting the place up before the weekend.

Should the main workbench be against a wall, close to a wall or out in the center of the room? I have seen all kinds of different setups. I guess having your tools within reach is helpful...?

Now to wood... Is LMI a good place for wood here in the US?

Gracias!



jshelton5040 -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 27 2012 14:26:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Polaco


Should the humidity be kept at about 50% or less?

Should the main workbench be against a wall, close to a wall or out in the center of the room? I have seen all kinds of different setups. I guess having your tools within reach is helpful...?

Now to wood... Is LMI a good place for wood here in the US?

Gracias!

We keep our assembly area at 45%.

I suppose bench location and type is rather personal. I've tried several different arrangements but found I prefer a free standing bench so you can walk all the way around it. I always cover the bench in plastic laminate and trim the edges with a hardwood like oak with radiused edges. Sharp edges don't get along with guitar making. I also like a good sized overhang to allow clamping. The problem with this kind of bench is it requires a lot of space.

LMI is ok for some things although the wood prices seem very high to me.



estebanana -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 5:32:47)

Great space, rent it out to a dominatrix and then spend that money to rent a dry studio across town.

Or build a level plywood over the cement floor and buy three large dehumidifiers.

great ambiente



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 12:09:53)

The moisture has stabilized since I fixed the sump pump and graded the ground surrounding the foundation walls. It is all pained out now. I hope to start setting up on the weekend.
I have to play Thursday Friday and Saturday - I never wished I didn't have to play gigs before now but I guess the money will subsidize my new guitarrero venture. LOL!

So back to wood... I was up late last night looking for wood suppliers online. There are lots and I am still not sure where to go to be honest....
Where are the best places to start out until I start cutting down my own trees? :)



El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 12:22:39)

Oh, BTW, I have started putting light bulbs inside my guitars and am discovering some interesting stuff...

The Sobrinos and Conde guitars I have going back to 1960, all have the center 4 braces parallel! The newer ones also have extended the center two to either side of the sound hole under the cross braces.
I guess I could trace them at some point if anyone was interested as I have some engineering drawing experience from bygone years. :)

J.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 12:38:25)

Maybe this can inspire you. A video that I made 4 years ago, when my workshop was all new and clean.




El Polaco -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 13:32:07)

Anders,

Thanks for the video! That is exactly what I wanted to see!
My space may end up looking like yours - I hope you don't mind but it seems comfortable and logical.

I will be going to Ikea today to get a couple of those long wooden butcher block style counter tops they sell. they are made from laminated strips but very solid. I used them in the past for kitchens remodels.

I like the idea of having cabinets underneath with a good overhang for clamping etc...

Thanks again!

Jorge.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Passion for building flamenco guitars. (Mar. 28 2012 22:26:51)

Allied Lutherie is good
You can pick the set you want from their weekly specials pages



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