Third Person Flamencos (Full Version)

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srshea -> Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 21:57:03)

I’ve noticed that flamencos often refer to themselves in the third person when speaking in interviews and that the interviewers themselves often frame their questions as such. Instead of “How do you feel about whatzit?” you get “How does Manolo Caracol feel about this-n-that?” or “How does a Manuel Agujetas put his pants on in the morning?” And then the guy goes and talks about himself in the third person. “Manuel Agujetas puts his pants on one leg at a time.”

Superstar athletes do this all the time, which is obnoxious and grating when it’s not absurdly amusing, but when flamencos do it, I dunno. It doesn’t bug me. Is there anything specific to Spanish language or culture at play in this sort of thing?

I know it's kind of a silly observation, but this is genuinely interesting to me. These guys often carry themselves with a complex air of humility and arrogance, and this third person thing seems to reflect that...



Doitsujin -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 22:29:23)

It´s just arrogance Doitsujin believes. They also think flamenco is art.. c´mon man.. ;)



Ron.M -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 22:33:34)

Ron.M would second Doit on that observation...


cheers,

Ron



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 22:37:16)

Thanks, guys.




estebanana -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 23:33:50)

quote:

“How does a Manuel Agujetas put his pants on in the morning?”


Stephen Faulk would say that Agujetas would say Agujetas has trouble putting his pants on in the morning because despite being almost 80 he gets a circus tent in his pants every morning from a long pole he keeps down there. So Stephen heard Agujetas say in a movie in which Agujetas played himself and spoke in the first person.



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Feb. 29 2012 23:47:51)

quote:

...he gets a circus tent in his pants every morning from a long pole he keeps down there. So Stephen heard Agujetas say in a movie in which Agujetas played himself and spoke in the first person.


Woah! Was this at the Nob Hill Theater?



estebanana -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 0:21:16)

There is a movie made by a French film maker called Agujetas Cantaor.....have you seen it? Came out about ten years ago or more.

In it he says something like "...every morning I pitch a tent.." he was not talking about going camping.

Same film where he totally dissed Moraito on camera on stage after Moraito had just accompanied him por siguiriya like a mo fo. Moraito just shrugs his shoulders, raises his fino glass and toasts the craziness of Agujetas. ~ Moraito the model of composure and graciousness.

Then there is the one arm Jesus cruxificion scene....the film is really quite good.



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 0:36:04)

I actually haven't seen it. I've got the "soundtrack" cd with that monster twenty minute martinete, which I like listening to while I hang my laundry up.

quote:


Then there is the one arm Jesus cruxificion scene....the film is really quite good.


Didn't one of the other Agujetases do a concept album about the crucifixion?



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 0:59:08)

Also good watchin' is the Agujetas episode of Rito y Geografia, which I only just saw for the first time a couple of months ago and is now easily one my favorites. His old man is an even bigger s.o.b. than he his and there's lots of ball-busting interview footage where they deride pretty much everything in sight and follow it up with the kind of sweaty, paint peeling singing that earns them the right to talk as much **** as they want. All held together by Parrilla's superlative accompaniment.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 6:56:07)

Using 3rd person is just a way of speaking. Its used on all level.
"Mira como baila/juega/toca/come LA María"

I´m often called EL Anders by friends and family and when they do so, its in order to be sweet and kind. Its possitive. "El Anders es un campeón/Tontito/muy buen cocinero/whatever



BarkellWH -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 10:48:16)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Lone Ranger had disguised himself as a door. Tonto, not knowing this, shot his knob off.

Cheers,

Bill



Estevan -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 13:03:44)

quote:

In it he says something like "...every morning I pitch a tent.." he was not talking about going camping.

Then there is the one arm Jesus cruxificion scene....

Sure it was an arm....?



Estevan -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 13:10:05)

quote:

Using 3rd person is just a way of speaking. Its used on all level.
"Mira como baila/juega/toca/come LA María"

I´m often called EL Anders by friends and family and when they do so, its in order to be sweet and kind. Its possitive. "El Anders es un campeón/Tontito/muy buen cocinero/whatever

Anders, what Adam means by 'speaking in the 3rd person' is talking about yourself as if you were someone else that you know, for example if you said "Anders makes fine guitars, and his price is quite reasonable. He plays at the peña and builds boats in his spare time."
Which sounds kind of strange, perhaps a little schizophrenic.



Ron.M -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 13:40:01)

Maybe what Anders was meaning was talking directly to someone, but in the 3rd person?

eg.. if I say to you, "So what's Estevan up to today?" (rather than what are YOU)

cheers,

Ron

Coppers also use the phrase "Allo, allo, allo.....What are we up to here?" to villains. [:D]



El Kiko -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 17:35:59)

dont forget the polite form of You (Usted ) and the third person verb with it ,,even if the "Ustd" is not said it can be implied in the verb alone ,,depending on region of course ...



Florian -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 17:58:28)

its not an arrogance thing imo, its a different use of the language and the cultural differences....certain differences and uses of the languages don't always paint the perfect picture of the actual meaning even if translated perfectly

eg where i come from (romania) Anders saying something like " Anders makes good guitars" is totally accepted and not seen as arrogant....if anything seen as more of a promise, a statement or assurance but no negative spin on it...



Estevan -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 18:12:57)

quote:

Maybe what Anders was meaning was talking directly to someone, but in the 3rd person?

eg.. if I say to you, "So what's Estevan up to today?" (rather than what are YOU)

No, he was referring to putting a definite article before the person's name when talking about them, which at first glance seems to make them into objects but, as he says, is actually quite friendly. Ages ago when I played with chilenos I got used to being referred to as "El Estív"..."Mira weón, como toca El Estív - suena super bien/la cagada". "Chucha weón, El Estív es mas latino que los latinos, siempre llega atrasao"...etc.

quote:

dont forget the polite form of You (Usted ) and the third person verb with it ,,even if the "Ustd" is not said it can be implied in the verb alone ,,depending on region of course ...


Sure, but Sr. Shea was wondering about the way that "flamencos often refer to themselves in the third person when speaking in interviews and that the interviewers themselves often frame their questions as such. Instead of “How do you feel about whatzit?”

So, following that pattern I would ask you "Tell us about Rico Kiko's practice routine" and you would answer, as if you were talking about someone else "In the morning, after having his coffee, Rico Kiko likes to walk through Havana with his cigar lit; then he sits on a bench with a newspaper and looks like a millionaire..."

It's not totally unusual for an interviewer to use the third person in English when asking a question of a famous person, usually just at the beginning of an interview to get things started, but it's generally only psycopathic dictators and others with delusions of grandeur or perhaps schizophrenia who would talk about themselves that way.

So says Estevan. (At least, that's what he told me).



NormanKliman -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 18:37:26)

quote:

...others with delusions of grandeur or perhaps schizophrenia...


Twelve out of ten agree.

quote:

..."In the morning, after having his coffee..."


[:D] Ole tú, que eres de los pocos por aquí que chanela de verdad.



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 18:56:52)

As usual, Estevan is picking up what I was trying to put down. Sorry for any confusion, but this is what I was getting at:

This third person thing happens all the time in Rito y Geografia interviews (and usually with older, “figura” types, so maybe it’s an old guy thing…), but I can’t think of any off the top of my head and don’t have the time to search for any of those occurrences on youtube (If I come across any I’ll post one.) But here are a couple of random examples from print interviews that I happen to have bookmarked here:

Interviewing Lebriajano, the interviewer frequently frames the questions like so:

“What does El Lebrijano have in store for us?” (¿Cual es la próxima sorpresa que nos guarda el Lebrijano?)

Or:

“A lot of people today believe cante has lost its direction. What does El Lebrijano find lacking?” (¿qué echa de menos El Lebrijano ahora?)

http://www.deflamenco.com/revista/pagina.jsp?codigo=2244

Skimming over the interview it looks like he answers all the questions like a normal, non-split personality type guy, so this is just an example of an interviewer speaking in this (to me) affected sort of way.

In this interview with Menese a series of questions about his background are finally answered like this:

“I started out at the Bar Central, just a kid, and they used to talk about cante, they sang some…that’s where José Menese came from.” (…de allí salió José Menese.)

http://www.deflamenco.com/entrevistas/josemenese/index.jsp

So, that’s what I mean as an example of someone referring to themselves in the third person. Instead of one guy saying "What do you think of this?" and the other guys saying "This is what I think of this." you get this oddly formal sort of discourse. It can all sound a bit “grand” and affected, but I’ve also come to appreciate it as part of the way some of these guys talk. And it seems to go beyond the basic sort of language conventions that I’m familiar with (“tu” versus “usted”, or using honorifics like “senor” or “Don” when speaking to an older, respected person) so I was just curious if there was actually any specific language or cultural roots to this, or if it’s just your garden-variety, pumped up pomposity……



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 19:20:21)

quote:

eg.. if I say to you, "So what's Estevan up to today?" (rather than what are YOU)


quote:

It's not totally unusual for an interviewer to use the third person in English when asking a question of a famous person, usually just at the beginning of an interview to get things started...


This is getting close to splitting hairs about usage and language conventions from place to place, but I feel like if I were to ask someone I actually KNOW “And how’s Ron doing this fine morning?” that there’s an unspoken acknowledgment between me and my friend Ron that it’s kind of silly to speak in this way. We both know that normal people don’t talk like that, so there’s just a little bit of droll joking involved.

And in the example of someone interviewing a famous person and kicking things off with “What’s a day in the life of Estevan de Toronto really like?” I feel that, again, everyone involved knows that this is a funny way of going about things and that there’s an element of play-acting in speaking in this manner. There’s a little wink behind that question.

But with the flamenco guys I get the sense that this way of speaking is all done with a straight face....



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 19:59:21)

quote:

its not an arrogance thing imo, its a different use of the language and the cultural differences....certain differences and uses of the languages don't always paint the perfect picture of the actual meaning even if translated perfectly

eg where i come from (romania) Anders saying something like " Anders makes good guitars" is totally accepted and not seen as arrogant....if anything seen as more of a promise, a statement or assurance but no negative spin on it...


Pretty much the same here in Spain... And maybe thats why Romanians integrate so easily in the Spanish society?



Ron.M -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 20:01:39)

OK...I vote for addressing each other as "Don" or at least "Estimado (a) Señor (a) in each and every post and speaking to each other in only the third person.

Would perhaps save some flame threads? [:D]

Le saluda atentamente y Maximos Grovellanos! [:D]

Ron



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 20:12:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

OK...I vote for addressing each other as "Don" or at least "Estimado (a) Señor (a) in each and every post and speaking to each other in only the third person.

Would perhaps save some flame threads? [:D]

Le saluda atentamente y Maximos Grovellanos! [:D]

Ron


Kind of like British MPs referring to one another as "the Right Honorable so and so" right before verbally eviscerating the other guy?.......



Ron.M -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 20:19:00)

Exactly, Don Srshea !

If you can't be nasty pleasantly then don't be nasty at all...

It's the British way of life!

cheers,

Ron



srshea -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 20:20:55)

Keep Calm and Be Nasty.



El Kiko -> RE: Third Person Flamencos (Mar. 1 2012 22:25:07)

quote:

Rico Kiko likes to walk through Havana with his cigar lit; then he sits on a bench with a newspaper and looks like a millionaire..."


Ahh you know me so well .... dont forget about the white suit ......


Anyway I had a look around and loads of people do it that you know .....
How about Cavemen , you cant talk like a caveman in the first person can you ?/

This is apparently known as HULK SPEAK .....Favored words in the Hulkspeak include "Smash", "Puny", and "Blank-thing" (e.g. "HULK SMASH PUNY LIZARD THING!" when fighting a velociraptor). Yes, the all-caps is necessary.

More stuff you know .....Mongo from the Mel Brooks film Blazing Saddles,....

The King Julian in Madagascar.

Actually what I was looking for was a character called BOB in an comedy series BECKER he always referred to himself as BOB, anyone remember him?

quote:

"Don" or at least "Estimado (a) Señor (a) in each and every post and speaking to each other in only the third person.
thats just to be formal , if you were to start writing a formal letter , to a bank Manager for example , you could start.... Muy Señor mio.....etc...


Anyway Kiko go sleep now ,, save energy ... sleep good .. alchol bad ......ZZZzzzzzz



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