RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Full Version)

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vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 13:42:54)

quote:

Could you please define what (for u) characterize such professional level?


I'm not sure whether you want me to characterize the playing or what the level looks like.

If you're asking me what professional playing looks like, I'm sorry, I really can't describe it. It's pretty subjective and all I can say is I'd know it when I saw it. Play some of Grisha's clips next to this one and I think you'd see a big difference in the crispness of the playing.

If you're asking me to characterize the definition of professional, I'd say that a professional should earn most or all of his/her living by performing the activity. If one plays 3-4 classes per week for $30 per class, I wouldn't say that qualifies, personally. If one plays a few shows per year on top of that and earns a few thousand dollars per year, I wouldn't refer to that person as a professional guitar player.

I know there could be various interpretations and people would probably disagree with me, but that's how I'd characterize it. So what I'm saying is that in my opinion, it is unlikely that the person in the videos would earn enough money playing flamenco in a year to support his family. He might be able to play for classes and do a few gigs, but unless he wants to kill jackrabbits and squirrels for food and live in a van, I don't think it would support a family. My opinion is that the dream to do nothing but play flamenco is probably a very selfish indulgence.



Florian -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 13:51:50)

quote:

I know there could be various interpretations and people would probably disagree with me


[;)] yes there are a few

I never liked that word "pro" id never ever use it to describe myself, but i do earn my money playing flamenco, i am not rich but not starving either between classes, privates, regular gigs, shows i survive and i don't live in a van...just living the selfish dream [:)]

ive done the real job and playing (probably will again if i need to)...but had maybe about $100 more a week which went on lunch everyday, petrol etc..and I was a whole lot more unhappy, tired, stressed and bitter

i dont know what life if all about if not trying to pursue ones happiness..whatever that is

I understand that some don't have that luxury cause they have wife's and kids to think about, fair enough...but..we don't marry people out of the goodness of our hearts, or to be kind to them, we marry them in relation to how they make us feel...in a sense we are all selfishly indulging....just in different things


EDIT

in a way i fell all you married men are a little selfish, want to keep taking up the same woman's time every night, and noone else is allowed near her...well not me !! i have too much respect for them....i just bother them for 5 minutes maybe once week and let them live their happy, clean and hygienic life...away from my dirty laundry [:)]

JK.



XXX -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 14:26:44)

You can neither see nor hear whether somebody is a professional guitarrist. You can count it by the money he earns through playing.
Other than that i find it interesting that so many people advise him without knowing him or his situation (his flamenco "area" and job opportunities, his social environment). I dont even know what the real problem is here, but I hope he gets it sorted out somehow ^^.



Ron.M -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 15:13:37)

Damn, if I ever win the Lottery, I'm gonna hire Florian as a Life Coach!

Seriously!

cheers,

Ron



mezzo -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 15:17:20)

vuduchyld thanks for the clarification [:)]

I have really no idea of the standards in the flamenco professsional aera. But I think for the majority of them it's very hard to earn alot of money. Of course they are stratifications and a few should received very high incomes for their shows.

If I understand well, in Andalucia there are bunch of flamenco artists who live or have lived in kind of miserable conditions. Some big names who are struggling for a decent living. I heard these stories and complaining tons of times in interviews (via YT videos). Principaly coz the bigs festivals managment always hire the sames persons and let the others with scarces possibilities in terms of artistical incomes.

So according to your definition of what is a professional I could easily claim that alot of Big flamenco names (including first class) would be out of the categorization.

For the other side of your judgement, i can't say nothing... Sure if we compare kehati with Tomatito himself or with Grisha or with Nunez, he no longer has to wash the dishes in a restaurant [:D]



Florian -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 15:43:33)

quote:

Damn, if I ever win the Lottery, I'm gonna hire Florian as a Life Coach!


il turn you into a happy bum in no time [:D]

I am kidding, i should be taking advice from you, you've experienced a hell of alot more, i dont know what the hell i am doing, just living one day at the time selfishly satisfying my most basic urges and needs



mrMagenta -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 16:09:05)

Florians advice is good! get out there, seek out the opportunities. You play really well. There has to be work out there. Create awareness.

I have gigs here in Sweden. There are some good players in this country.. but it's definitely not Spain. In Spain I wouldn't make a dime with my level of playing. In some ways I probably need both Spain and Sweden to become a better flamenco guitarist. But, above all I need to put down the time.. study, practice, be patient, stay healthy etc. That's the greatest limiting factor for me. At least when there is foro flamenco, which gives an abundance of ideas and material to take in :-)



Adam -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 17:20:01)

Kehati: Florian's advice is good, but it shouldn't be used (and I'm worried it will) to further your attitude of dependence. Try what he said, see if it works out. Hopefully you'll have lots of gigs and a good stream of money coming in. But if not, don't blame your parents, your wife, other musicians, hotel owners, and all the rest of Malaysia. If the market isn't there, you might not be able to create it, and that's the point at which you can keep trying on the side, but also man up and realize that you have a family, and it's your job to support them. If you do that by making money on guitar, then great, but if not, no good can come of sitting around complaining, or chasing after a dragon, at your family's expense.



vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 17:20:22)

quote:


yes there are a few


Well, Florian, if you earn all or most of your living playing flamenco, then I'd say you're a professional. It's what you do for a living.

If you don't live in a mansion or support a family, that doesn't mean you're not a professional. If you've scaled back your needs to match an income that might be lower than it would be in other fields, that's just being smart. Still a professional.

Honestly, having a family is a lifestyle choice. So is playing guitar professionally. And the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. They are both just individual choices.

My individual choices would never have led me to playing guitar professionally. Before or after I started learning flamenco, before or after starting a family, I would NEVER have chosen to try to earn a living from playing music. It's just not a lifestyle choice that interests me. I love to play and sometimes I think I'd love to do nothing but play for hours and hours and hours every day. But having been raised in the circumstances I was raised in, I'm just not that interested in the insecurity and variability of the work schedule and the pay. I like having a job with a salary, sick days, and all that. Music works great for me as a supplement to that.



vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 17:36:20)

quote:

vuduchyld thanks for the clarification

I have really no idea of the standards in the flamenco professsional aera. But I think for the majority of them it's very hard to earn alot of money. Of course they are stratifications and a few should received very high incomes for their shows.

If I understand well, in Andalucia there are bunch of flamenco artists who live or have lived in kind of miserable conditions. Some big names who are struggling for a decent living. I heard these stories and complaining tons of times in interviews (via YT videos). Principaly coz the bigs festivals managment always hire the sames persons and let the others with scarces possibilities in terms of artistical incomes.

So according to your definition of what is a professional I could easily claim that alot of Big flamenco names (including first class) would be out of the categorization.

For the other side of your judgement, i can't say nothing... Sure if we compare kehati with Tomatito himself or with Grisha or with Nunez, he no longer has to wash the dishes in a restaurant


I'm sure you are right. There probably are a lot of big flamenco names who do not earn a living playing flamenco. (Another great reason to get an effin' job.)

My wife is good friends with a guy from Seville who sustained himself and his wife (a dancer) by playing flamenco guitar for many years. He did gigs, he recorded albums, he might have done a movie soundtrack, even. Made a good living. Would definitely fit the definition of professional, really, whatever the definition might have been. As the economy got worse in 2008 and 2009, the gigs got less frequent. Eventually, in 2010, I believe, he and his wife moved the the US because he couldn't make money in Spain. I think he might have played 2nd or 3rd chair with Jose Tanaka for part of a tour and I know he's done some of his own gigs in the States, but I'm not sure what he's up to these days.

He's an incredible player, no doubt. But ultimately, Deniz is right. If it doesn't pay, you're not professional. If the market disappears and he has to wash cars for a living, that makes him a professional car-washer, not a professional guitar player, because washing cars is what he does as a profession. And if that market disappears to the point that Paco himself can't get paid, then Paco may be world-class or he may be the best in the world, but not a professional.

It's no different from tiddlywinks or scrabble. Like flamenco guitar, it may take great skill to play world-class level scrabble or tiddlywinks, but if there isn't a professional circuit to support it, you couldn't very well be a professional. You couldn't earn a living.



Ron.M -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 17:44:42)

quote:

that makes him a professional car-washer, not a professional guitar player, because washing cars is what he does as a profession. And if that market disappears to the point that Paco himself can't get paid, then Paco may be world-class or he may be the best in the world, but not a professional.


Yeah, but he could charge extra for autographing your car after he's washed it...

cheers,

Ron



vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 17:54:27)

quote:

Yeah, but he could charge extra for autographing your car after he's washed it...

cheers,

Ron


LOL!!!! True!



kudo -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 18:21:09)

quote:

My wife is good friends with a guy from Seville who sustained himself and his wife (a dancer) by playing flamenco guitar for many years.

whats his name? I would like to look him up on youtube [:)]



Florian -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 18:32:59)

to be fair i think we need to give kehati the benefit of the doubt, he might have used wrong english words describing his frustration and situation, not necessarily realizing how its coming across english is not his first language, from his open and friendly replies here he seems to me down to earth and eager to accept advice so things might not be exactly as we read em,...there might have been some things about his situation and attitude that got lost in translation....i doubt the situation is exactly as we read it...or at least i am sure there's a lot more to the story...

either way the guy openly and courageously poured his heart out, i am quite humbled but the honesty and candidness



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 25 2012 18:51:56)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 20 2012 12:31:50



vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 19:05:56)

quote:

whats his name? I would like to look him up on youtube





Florian -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 19:05:57)

quote:

1. learn all basic compas and solo flamenco guitar songs- for working with the dancer ( 2-3 shows a month )
2. find, re arrange the romantic tunes to flamenco style - for restaurants or hotels
3. make demo cds for jobs ( recording studio - sessionist, hotel etc )
4. take care of my health...try to minimize my cigarettes.


Ole Kehati, you do this and i promise you good things to come, u do all this demos and drop em off to all this places its just impossible that you not going to get some work, you CAN play and there ARE people even in your country who appreciate nice music ...flamenco is in almost every country and every city in the world for a reason...in every single place there must have been a first

also i forgot if there's any music festivals apply to them also, perhaps do a google search on music festivals in Malaysia


btw i did a google search for "Flamenco in Malaysia" ..someone there must like flamenco

http://food.malaysiamostwanted.com/venues/flamenco-restaurant-bar



gbv1158 -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 19:32:58)

quote:

Now i'm going to
1. learn all basic compas and solo flamenco guitar songs- for working with the dancer ( 2-3 shows a month )
2. find, re arrange the romantic tunes to flamenco style - for restaurants or hotels
3. make demo cds for jobs ( recording studio - sessionist, hotel etc )
4. take care of my health...try to minimize my cigarettes.
5. pray, pray, pray, pray, pray...........


well.... you forgot n.6 : keep in touch with us, in the foro!! :-)

kehati : you are very talented!...trust yourself!, be optimistic! follow the Florian's suggestions!, you will see, you'll get it!

@Florian : you are such a NICE person!

ciao,
giambattista



gbv1158 -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 19:44:31)

quote:


@Florian : you are such a NICE person!


well.... truly... all yiu guys are nice! :-)


ciao
giambattista



kudo -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 25 2012 20:14:00)

very nice, yea thats cool! I know Jose Rodriguez and yeah your right he plays with Tanaka


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Munin -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 26 2012 4:11:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kehati

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you..........for all your comments, thoughts and advices.Now i'm going to
1. learn all basic compas and solo flamenco guitar songs- for working with the dancer ( 2-3 shows a month )
2. find, re arrange the romantic tunes to flamenco style - for restaurants or hotels
3. make demo cds for jobs ( recording studio - sessionist, hotel etc )
4. take care of my health...try to minimize my cigarettes.
5. pray, pray, pray, pray, pray...........

All the words and support from you guys can only be repay by the Big G.


Great to hear that you are finally taking an initiative with something. Sounds like a plan. By the way, couldn't you also teach? Not necessarily flamenco guitar but just some simple guitar basics to kids etc.? I am sure you would at least have demand for that in Malaysia?

RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Oh so THAT's that guy. He is a great player. He has some lessons on TomaFlamenco.com with Rocio Marquez and a few other flamencos. I hope he's doing better in the US now if it is like it was told here. I haven't heard Tanaka apart from his lessons but I would assume Rodriguez is easily the much better player...I hope he can get into the spotlight himself one day.



vuduchyld -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 26 2012 4:46:56)

quote:

RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Oh so THAT's that guy. He is a great player. He has some lessons on TomaFlamenco.com with Rocio Marquez and a few other flamencos. I hope he's doing better in the US now if it is like it was told here. I haven't heard Tanaka apart from his lessons but I would assume Rodriguez is easily the much better player...I hope he can get into the spotlight himself one day.


Yeah, he is a great player and a really, really nice guy. I don't know him well, but I did get a chance to meet him in Seville and my wife is friends with his wife and they chat on the phone every so often. I just haven't heard an update in a while.

From everything I know and from what I observed in Spain a year and a half ago, the economy was hit far worse than it was in the US...especially compared to where we live, which is in the central part of the states. I'd guess that when unemployment is 20%, many people suffer in many professions.



orsonw -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 26 2012 7:23:25)

Jose Luis Rodriguez is great, sadly I know of other very high level guitarists and dancers who cannot make a living in Spain at the moment.



marduk -> RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (Feb. 26 2012 23:09:56)

quote:

i dont know what life if all about if not trying to pursue ones happiness..whatever that is


thanks for saying that Flo, I know you were not talking to me [:)] but I took something away from this advice

so many people tell me im crazy that I work so much and never get paid, but you described exactly why i do it :)

quote:

away from my dirty laundry


I just feel sorry for the lady that one day decides to try to clean out your guitar case! you got more stuff in there than most american handbags [:D]



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