Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Full Version)

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LBrandt -> Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 18:29:04)

Hello,

I'm trying to learn how to do a continuous rasgueado, but of course, it's difficult for me.

Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke of some sort? I was watching this youtube video of someone saying that he was doing a continuous rasgueado, but all that I ever saw him doing was e, a, m, i over and over, and only on downstroke. Every fingering version of rasgueado that I've ever seen has at least one downstroke.

Thanks,
Louis




Paul Magnussen -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 18:57:51)

quote:

Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke of some sort?


No: it’s possible to bring the bring each finger back into the hand as the next finger starts the downstroke, so that by the time the index has played its downstroke, the little finger is ready again.

As far as I’m aware the most notable exponent exponent of this method is Juan Serrano, who produces a roll of amazing regularity with it; and it’s described in his Method.

It takes a lot of practice to get smooth.

As far as I can make out, it seems to have gone out of fashion now, though.



Ron.M -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:21:38)

Hi Louis,

No, this is "Flamingo" technique.

All Flamenco rasgueados depend on a number of downstrokes and only one upstroke.

There are loads of Flamingo teachers on YouTube....Beware!

Have a look at what the pro Flamenco guitarists do!

cheers,

Ron



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:22:54)

So you're saying that Juan Serrano does continuous rasgueado with only e, a, m, i, e, a, m, i,...downstroke only?



El_Tortuga -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:29:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBrandt

Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke of some sort? I was watching this youtube video of someone saying that he was doing a continuous rasgueado, but all that I ever saw him doing was e, a, m, i over and over, and only on downstroke. Every fingering version of rasgueado that I've ever seen has at least one downstroke.

Thanks,
Louis



I think you meant to say "has at least one UPstroke." [;)]

Here are a few rasgueados to consider:

Basic flourish or 16th note: e-a-m-i
Basic flourish with thumb: e-a-m-i-p (the thumb does an upstroke OR a downstroke, depending on your preference

Continuous 16th or 32nd notes:
1) e-a-m-i e-a-m-i e-a-m-i is played by Juan Serrano, as Paul mentioned. Juan Martín also employs it. A variation that can sound really strong is: i-e-a-m i-e-a-m i-e-a-m
2) a-m-i-i a-m-i-i a-m-i-i with the index finger finishing up, is very common among more modern players who tend to disregard the "dedo pequeño"

Quintuplets:
Once: e-a-m-i-i or continuous: e-a-m-i-i e-a-m-i-i e-a-m-i-i - this rasgueado is not as popular as it once was. Some guitarists find it difficult to master subdividing beats into 5!

Then there are the triplets, but I won't go into those, don't have the time LOL

[;)]



El_Tortuga -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:37:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBrandt

So you're saying that Juan Serrano does continuous rasgueado with only e, a, m, i, e, a, m, i,...downstroke only?


Correct, that's what Juan Serrano does, and really well.



rombsix -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:40:36)

quote:

A variation that can sound really strong is: i-e-a-m i-e-a-m i-e-a-m


Look here starting around 1:30 and onwards.




El_Tortuga -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 19:55:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

A variation that can sound really strong is: i-e-a-m i-e-a-m i-e-a-m


Look here starting around 1:30 and onwards.



I'm more impressed with how he rolls his Rs!!! lol j/k



Ron.M -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 20:01:44)

Respecto, but Juan was more fun when he recorded "Autumn Leaves" in a Flamenco style IMO. (Good Stuff! no joke!)

cheers,

Ron



Ruphus -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 22:46:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El_Tortuga

i-e-a-m i-e-a-m i-e-a-m


This is the technique that I believe to allow a continous rasgueado best.
Upstrokes just don´t fit in there.

Ruphus



eg.czerny -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 23:24:15)

The first continuous rasqueado that I learned over 40 years ago was just that. e, a, m, i down strokes only. That's what my teacher taught me. In fact I didn't know there was such a thing as using an upstroke. Not until many years later when the internet came along did see different ways of doing any rasqueado. After 40 years of practice it is still the fastest variation I can do.



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 23 2012 23:43:02)

Thanks for the replies. I understand that most of you are saying that the best rasgueado is done with downstrokes only. My problem is that after i, e, a, m, my fingers can't get back to the sequence fast enough to make the sound continuous. Unless I insert an upstroke somewhere in the sequence, I can't get a continuous sound.

What's the answer? Just keep practicing?

Louis



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 0:08:07)

quote:

I understand that most of you are saying that the best rasgueado is done with downstrokes only.


No: best for some people, perhaps. But rasgueado is a very individual thing. Find out what works best for you.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 2:22:28)

quote:

So you're saying that Juan Serrano does continuous rasgueado with only e, a, m, i, e, a, m, i,...downstroke only?


To be precise, Juan Serrano starts his rasgueado with I, and plays his continuous rasgueado IXAMIXAM etc. all down.

Ramon



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 2:34:42)

quote:

Thanks for the replies. I understand that most of you are saying that the best rasgueado is done with downstrokes only. My problem is that after i, e, a, m, my fingers can't get back to the sequence fast enough to make the sound continuous. Unless I insert an upstroke somewhere in the sequence, I can't get a continuous sound.

What's the answer? Just keep practicing?

Louis


First of all, there's no such thing as the "best" rasgueado. You use different rasgueados for different desired effects. Also, it's a matter of preference – some players prefer some, and other players others. But in any case you don't play just one rasgueado – you play lots of different ones.

However, Juan Serrano only plays that one, no matter where or what.

As for your not being able to get a continuous sound, I get the feeling you tried a little and that was it. It doesn't work that way. To perfect any technique takes a lot of determined practice. It takes a long time to develop the all down continuous rasgueado.

Here's a hint – if you're starting with X, strike with X, then with A, then with M. Then – before you strike with I bring X,A, and M quickly back up into playing position. THEN play with I. Now X is ready to strike after I completes its stroke.

BUT – you have to practice this very slowly over a very long period of time. And you have to use a metronome - one stroke per click. If the strokes aren't spaced dead even it will sound ragged and dreadful.

Ramon



Ron.M -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 10:14:52)

Another good thing to practise is this...

Say you have a 4 stroke continuous rasgueado...eg a,m,i (down) then i (up)

Then don't count 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 but count in your head or use your foot to count in 3/4 time 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 etc

That way it throws the 1 beat onto a different finger each time and helps you develop an even ras.

BTW my method of returning the fingers to the "start" position is to bring ALL the fingers back up with the i upstroke.
To me this feels natural, like clenching your fist and requires no thought.

cheers,

Ron



rombsix -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 10:46:35)

quote:

Respecto, but Juan was more fun when he recorded "Autumn Leaves" in a Flamenco style IMO. (Good Stuff! no joke!)


See 2:18 below.



quote:

Here's a hint – if you're starting with X, strike with X, then with A, then with M. Then – before you strike with I bring X,A, and M quickly back up into playing position. THEN play with I. Now X is ready to strike after I completes its stroke.


Yes - this is the secret to "continuous rolls" as also taught by Oscar Herrero. I can make a short video for you if you like, or you can also refer to Oscar Herrero's Paso a Paso series Volume I.

Cheers!



Argaith -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 10:48:51)

It is demonstrated by Oscar Herrero in this video.
You just need to practice it super slowly in the beginning and let your hand rest when you feel tired and start again. The trick is to bring back 'a' and 'm' (together) when you do downstroke with the 'i'.

It takes time long anything else.
Good luck:)

http://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/producto/guitarra-flamenca-paso-a-paso.-vol.-1-(dvd)/2587/



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 17:04:47)

quote:

You just need to practice it super slowly in the beginning and let your hand rest when you feel tired and start again. The trick is to bring back 'a' and 'm' (together) when you do downstroke with the 'i'.


Yes - this is exactly right for this particular four stroke. If you practice this slowly for a long time, eventually A/M UP crosses I DOWN at the same time. Then you have all the time in the world - relatively speaking - for the next A DOWN, because you still have an I UP stroke in between.

This is one of the easier rasgueados to develop, and a good one too, but as I said with the all down, you have to practice it very slowly and relaxed for a long time, and with a metronome.

Ramon














Ramon



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 17:44:55)

Ramon,

Thanks. But why do you say just A and M up crosses I down? Why not A, M and E up crossing I down? Shouldn't E (or whatever you call the pinky) be coming up at the same time as A and M come up?

Louis



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 19:47:48)

quote:

Ramon,

Thanks. But why do you say just A and M up crosses I down? Why not A, M and E up crossing I down? Shouldn't E (or whatever you call the pinky) be coming up at the same time as A and M come up?

Louis


I was referring to the four stroke rasgueado that is played as – A DOWN – M DOWN – I DOWN – I UP. You do that as I described. With the four stroke all down, yes, you bring X,A, and M all back up together, which is how I described it earlier in a post above.

Ramon



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 19:53:10)

Ok, I understand. So you were referring to two different techniques, one with a three finger down, 1 upstroke, and one with a four finger down, no upstroke.

Thanks,
Louis



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 19:53:43)

quote:

Say you have a 4 stroke continuous rasgueado...eg a,m,i (down) then i (up)

Then don't count 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 but count in your head or use your foot to count in 3/4 time 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 etc


Yes. I also teach a variation of this, but with the same general idea. You count to ten, and then start over again with one, and keep counting to ten. Develops great independence of fingers. When you get to seven, say "sev," because it's the only number with two syllables, and when the tempo starts to pick up you want to keep it brief.

But either way serves the same general purpose.

Ramon



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 24 2012 20:00:04)

quote:

Ok, I understand. So you were referring to two different techniques, one with a three finger down, 1 upstroke, and one with a four finger down, no upstroke.


Yes.

Ramon



gaash -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 25 2012 15:16:53)

e-a-m-i e-a-m-i etc. (all downstrokes) is very doable and I think sounds smoother than a lot of the techniques with an upstroke. The way I practice it (not that I am an expert in it ) is to do it in units of 5 for practice .. i.e.

e-a-m-i-e (all downstrokes) to practice getitng the little finger back in time which is the hard part



keith -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 26 2012 10:22:27)

LBrandt-- Doing a 4 downstroke continous rasqueado as with tremelo and arpeggio involves prepping the fingers to do what is wanted; that is, you have a finger ready to execute as the finger in front is touching/striking the string. After you extend fingers C (chaquito=pinkie) A and M think about flexing them back into position before you extend finger I and as you extend finger I flex fingers back into positon so as finger I clears the string finger C is ready to fire. It may help to not anchor your thumb--check out the video with Sabicas playing Malaguena.



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 26 2012 17:19:50)

Yes, I understand the concept. I just can't do it fast enough. Is the answer, just keep practicing?

Thanks,
Louis



keith -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 26 2012 18:47:12)

Louis--practice does make perfect. you can actually practice while driving, sitting at work, etc. by using your outer side of your leg as the strings and slowly flicking your fingers. do the first 3 fingers (c-a-m) then stop and think about pulling those fingers in before you flick your index finger--this is to get your brain and fingers to be on the same page. remember, a baby takes baby steps then begins to run.



LBrandt -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 26 2012 19:14:03)

Keith,
Yes, I can do that. I can easily pull my e,a,m fingers back as I flick out my i, but I still can't get the entire process fast enough to be continuous.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Doesn't continuous rasgueado always require an upstroke? (Feb. 26 2012 21:02:36)

quote:

Keith,
Yes, I can do that. I can easily pull my e,a,m fingers back as I flick out my i, but I still can't get the entire process fast enough to be continuous.


I already explained to you that you have to practice this very slowly for a very long time. Also you don't "I can easily pull my e,a,m fingers back AS I flick out my i." You have to pull them back up BEFORE you flick with I.

Ramon



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