Bad form of rasgueado? (Full Version)

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Shawn Brock -> Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 17:42:19)

Friends and enemy's:

I have the fear that I'm developing some bad technique and I wanted to get your thoughts.

Recently I mashed my a finger, (ring finger) while working on a piano. This had a bad affect on my abilities to perform any rasgueado with the a finger. I took to doing a lot of, M up- I up- M down and when playing tangos and the like. I was also using the same combo at times when playing a soft triplet, or starting the movement with I up and not M up.

This is an area where my mind gets blurred. Someone will teach you something and tell you that's how to do it, and then will say, "but there is no one right way."

I seem to recall that some great flamenco guitarist used his M finger as opposed to his A finger a lot, but can't remember who it is.

Now that the swelling of my A finger is pretty much gone I'm trying to build back my strength, but unconsciously I start replacing strokes of the A finger with the M.

So what do you guys think? Anyone use the I-M combo more or as much as the I-A combo?



Ron.M -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 17:50:42)

Yes Shawn, that's a possible combination.
i (up) m (down) i (down)
or
m (down) i (down) i (up)

I'm using that combo here:-

http://www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/rascheat.wmv

cheers,

Ron



Estevan -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 18:29:47)

quote:

Yes Shawn, that's a possible combination.
i (up) m (down) i (down)
or
m (down) i (down) i (up)

Or one that is a regional curiosity of Granada:

m (up) m (down) i (down)

- that's for the tika-tum rhythm (like what I think you were referring to in tangos) or maybe triplets.

And for two groups of sixteenths:

m (up) m (down) i (down) m (up)/ m (down) i (down) m (up) m (down)/ i (down) (that is: mmim mimm i)

- that one can substitute for the more normal amii amii i.

These (and various variations of them) are used by the Habichuela brothers (Juan and Pepe) and the Cortes brothers (Miguel Angel and Paco) for example.



orsonw -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 18:38:41)

quote:

Or one that is a regional curiosity of Granada:

m (up) m (down) i (down)


I've also seen a few guitarists from Seville using this.
I use it, I find it useful for defined, strong strokes, also the up with m can be used to bring the treble strings out of a chord.

I find the more finger combination/rasgueado patterns I know the better, they all have a different colour/dynamic even if playing the same notes (as they would be written down).



at_leo_87 -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 22:08:20)

shawn,
i always prefer i-a because the length of the two fingers are more similar. but's that just me. if it works for you, go for it! but do take care of your A finger and let it heal properly.



Doitsujin -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Jan. 31 2012 23:54:03)

Well there is a general rule in flamenco.. Do whatever works for you. m upwards is a rare used technique. But if you get satisfying results with it..go for it. But it dosn´t make this technique less weird.



Shawn Brock -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 1 2012 0:04:09)

Thanks guys for pulling me in off the ledge. After years of bluegrass flat-picking, then getting into classical and using the fingers like a man is supposed to, and on to my true love of flamenco, I just didn't want to go wrong.

I do like the I M or M I and have gotten a lot of speed with it. Having said that I do need to make sure that I don't let my A finger get lazy. As you said Esteven the more combinations one knows and perfects the better off he'll be. I think I need to focus more on finger exercises than I have been. Its easy to get lazy on those and that's the last thing I need.

Thanks again to you guys for responding.

So many combinations with so little time!



Ricardo -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 1 2012 15:42:36)

Keep in mind, the m finger used combo with i up and down, normally lends itself to flicking from thumb, which gets that punchy bass snap sound. Great for certain applications, but not always a great replacement for normal ami rasgueado....it depends on situation and chord voicing too.

Compared to aii type rasgueado, sometimes the mii is better as it lets you free to do golpes with "a" easier....again depends on situation. But a i i triplets for example, the a finger does NOT flick off and snap, so by nature has a brighter or more brushing sound. This actually may be something preferable in some cases.

Ricardo



HolyEvil -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 1 2012 22:19:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Or one that is a regional curiosity of Granada:

m (up) m (down) i (down)


I've also seen a few guitarists from Seville using this.
I use it, I find it useful for defined, strong strokes, also the up with m can be used to bring the treble strings out of a chord.



miguel angel cortes shows this in his solea in his encruteo(can't spell) video..
i use i(up), m(down), i(down).. does it sound much different from m(up)

cheersw



orsonw -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 2 2012 8:29:16)

quote:

i use i(up), m(down), i(down).. does it sound much different from m(up)


Yes.
I use these below (as far as three finger stroke patterns). I think they all sound/feel very different and have different uses in different palos, tempos, dynamics etc.. Then of course they all have the variation of which finger you choose to start/end on, which also changes the musical effect.
i(up), m(down), i(down)
m(up), m(down), i(down)
i(up), a(down), i(down)



Shawn Brock -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 2 2012 16:42:50)

Okay... Another question for you guys... I didn't want to post a new thread on this because I feel its somewhat related to this one.

What are your thoughts of using P (thumb) for accents on buelerias? I have found at times that I have started playing down strokes with the thumb especially when accenting 12-3-6-9. The Jose Tanaka videos have him playing only with I, and part of me don't understand the reason for this. It seems I have a cleaner and more powerful accent with the thumb down than with I down. With I down and a golpe, I'm not getting the power I would like. I have been working on this though, and want to build more power with I down plus golpe.

It just seems like a person shouldn't be caged in by playing all rhythm with just I up and down. So I'm doing what the videos tell me to do, but I don't want to do things just one way, and I don't want to do things wrong either. Sure wish there was someone around to take lessons from... Vegas don't have enough good culture though...

Thanks for all of the help Guys...



Ron.M -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 2 2012 16:50:45)

Hi Shawn,

Yeah, you can use p to define particular strong points, but not on EVERY accented beat or it will sound boring.
If i is sounding weak, take a good swipe with it, curling it right back and letting go, turning the wrist as well if you want.

Maintaining basic rhythm with i up and down is pretty fundamental and important though. Using occasional short rasgueados will break up the monotony.

cheers,

Ron



srshea -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 2 2012 17:34:58)

quote:


What are your thoughts of using P (thumb) for accents on buelerias?


Edit: Whoops. I had thumb upstrokes on the brain when I first saw this and responded incorrectly. Anyway, this video is still good to look at since Brenes mixes in all kinds of thumb accents, downstrokes, upstrokes, upstrokes at the end of abanicos, etc.

Brenes has been one of my favorites lately. He pretty much just plays basic, meat and potatoes type stuff, but he keeps things fresh with a pretty varied right hand, lots of different strumming patterns and stuff. Lot’s of him on youtube, and especially good is the stuff from the Rito y Geografia series where there’s ample opportunity to see his right hand close up.




Ricardo -> RE: Bad form of rasgueado? (Feb. 3 2012 17:32:23)

quote:

What are your thoughts of using P (thumb) for accents on buelerias? I have found at times that I have started playing down strokes with the thumb especially when accenting 12-3-6-9. The Jose Tanaka videos have him playing only with I, and part of me don't understand the reason for this. It seems I have a cleaner and more powerful accent with the thumb down than with I down. With I down and a golpe, I'm not getting the power I would like.


Hmmm, might be some miss conception with the technique. When playing in por medio key, or any where the main chords have the bass note on the 5th string, or 4th string when accenting with golpes we are afforded the advantage of hooking and bending the thumb on the 6th string for leverage and flicking index into the basses simultaneous with a finger golpe for characteristic punchy snap. It takes no "strength" at all really, just some coordination. You simply can't do that in the por arriba key where you might want the E bass string.....actually all the E bass note chords we want accented with golpe are necessarily done p down (from resting position not flying in the air) with golpe, or i down with capirote.

To do por medio or 5th string rooted chords with p down is not "wrong" but you are truly missing out on some coolness available in those tonalities.



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