Switching keys within Tangos? (Full Version)

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orsonw -> Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 8:50:56)

I would be grateful if anyone can tell me if it is ok to mix keys between the cante and the footwork within the same tangos? I want to play por arriba for the cante and por medio for the footwork.

I notice below they are playing Tangos de Triana for the letra and then switching to normal tangos por medio falsetas inbetween. So according to Miguel Angel Cortes and co, A phrygian to A minor is good but what about A phrygian to E phrygian?




akatune -> [Deleted] (Jan. 26 2012 11:48:58)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 4 2013 2:21:35



Florian -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 12:06:18)

man if there's no singing you can do whatever you want...whos stopping you ? as long as you figure out a nice spot to change or make a nice transitional change that sounds like an intentional change of mood and not a mistake

a quick example where a change could work....straight after the signing dancer and you do a llamada... it works well if the dancer remains still for one compas straight after waiting to see what youl do and then gradually start to move with it while you make the change ...it makes it feel like an intentional change in the mood as opposed to a mistake

or after the llamada the dancer goes straight into the escobilla footwork with no guitar and you give it a compas or 2 and come in on the new key....that way the sound of the previous key would have worn off out of listeners immediate memory..





i find so hard to explain this in words but if i could show it, it would make easy sense in a sec...i am sure you have seen it before in vids



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 12:50:59)

Thank you.

quote:

if there's no singing you can do whatever you want...whos stopping you ? as long as you figure out a nice spot to change or make a nice transitional change that sounds like an intentional change of mood and not a mistake


There is a singer but I won't change under her singing, just inbetween coplas. I know I can make it work as you described, I just wanted to check with the flamenco police!

quote:

I am woefully undereducated in music
Me too!



Florian -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 13:00:06)

quote:

I just wanted to check with the flamenco police!


let me make it simple


when you playing...as long as you in compas and giving the singer what he needs, ......after..... flamenco is a country and you are the president [:D]

is never a question of what can i change to, only how ?, where ? and can i do it tastefully

theres alot of great little tricks we can use to change, like a guitar slowing down fade out... or a complete stop ... or a complete change in the speed and volume where you let the dancer do a couple of compases by themselves first etc



Ricardo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 13:25:56)

quote:

There is a singer but I won't change under her singing, just inbetween coplas. I know I can make it work as you described, I just wanted to check with the flamenco police!


Well, the problem is the singer needs a reference for singing in key. If you change keys once it is fine but if you have to keep going back to a different key for her, that is not good. A female singing por arriba raises an eyebrow for me however. Open position you may want to consider capo 7 por medio. But most females don't sing much higher then that....if she sings in the lower octave anything below 7 por arriba, that is a male vocal range.

I would try to stick to playing in just por arriba if you can. Also Taranta key can be nice to arrange things for (capo 2 frets lower then por arriba). I really need to know her exact postion to help better.

Anyway, if you MUST change key and return, all the singer really needs is a few rounds of basic compas to get the reference to sing.

Ricardo



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 26 2012 20:01:48)

Thanks for the advice Ricardo.

quote:

A female singing por arriba raises an eyebrow for me.


Isn't this what Montse's doing here?




Ricardo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 7:01:03)

quote:

Isn't this what Montse's doing here?


No, it is like I said, 7 por medio....although diego is playing D# capo 1, or 6 por medio capo 1. That is a high female voice. If your singer is singing HIGHER then her, then I guess I understand your dilemma. But you still don't give me her position and octave. Montse sings buleria por solea for paco in taranta key, but he accompanies as if it is 9 por medio way up high. Again, no need to change keys once you get up to that range, cuz you have the whole expanse of the neck and toque below.

Ricardo



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 11:34:52)

She sings tangos por medio around 4 or 5 depending on the letra. She and the dancer played me a recording of a tangos letra they both want to do, its a man singing por arriba. When we had a go I started accompanying her por medio they said they prefer the colour of por arriba chords. We didn't go any further than that and I haven't sat down and worked on this at all but I think I will just play por medio and explain it's better for her voice.

I am sometimes working with inexperienced singers that just sing and don't know what key/capo position is best for them so I have to try and figure it out for them. I am a dummy with theory and transposing but I am trying to learn and when accompanying singers it's very useful in finding the right key and capo position when they don't know themselves.

Thank you Ricardo, as usual I have learnt something valuable from you that I can apply to this and to future situations.

(one more question please?)
quote:

No, it is like I said, 7 por medio

I'm confused I can play along with the Monste video in standard tuning open por arriba. Isn't capo 7 por medio (E) = open por Arriba (E)?



mezzo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 13:06:15)

quote:

Thank you Ricardo, as usual I have learnt something valuable from you that I can apply to this and to future situations.

so the so called "flamenco police" could be useful sometimes. btw i don't get why/what few forumites here make jokes about this so called police.

what this term includes?
We just give our point of view. So when someone states something that some "knowledgable" dont agree with, then this member is potentially part of the police. So all persons who desagree with me (and the way I perceive the Artform) are in the police side coz i'm a flamenco thief btw!



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 13:11:51)

quote:

...the so called "flamenco police" could be useful sometimes. btw i don't get why/what few forumites here make jokes about this so called police.


I won't do it again.



XXX -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 13:15:54)

meezo, the term "police" in art does not refer to knowledge. It refers to what is accepted artistically. What IS accepted somehow also depends on the person, not just on the music. Its all very unnecessarily complicated, the only case in which i would pay attention to this is if i wanted to become an accepted player as a pro. If not, just forget it and try to have the maximum amount of fun IMO.


quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

...the so called "flamenco police" could be useful sometimes. btw i don't get why/what few forumites here make jokes about this so called police.


I won't do it again.


The way i perceived it was that it was not meant as a joke. Indeed you were worrying wheter what you plan to do - switching keys - would be an accepted way of doing things. THats nothing but checking with the police. The other question - capo positions - was more knowledge based.



mezzo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 13:29:32)

quote:

What IS accepted somehow also depends on the person, not just on the music.

imo it's all depend on the person.
If A has different tastes than B, then when A states: "it's black", B would consider him as part of the police coz for B it's obviously white. And vice versa.
So better appreciate the gray [:D]



XXX -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 13:39:39)

oops, with person in that sentence i meant the artist. An artist that has a certain standing in the community can get away with doing things that the police doesnt like. But an unknown player might be just get bashed by the police.
I usually do not think in terms of black, white or grey. I just like what like and find those serious discussions (rather like an "unserious" exchange of tastes) too unfruitful to invest time or thought into them.



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 14:59:23)

quote:

The way i perceived it was that it was not meant as a joke. Indeed you were worrying wheter what you plan to do - switching keys - would be an accepted way of doing things.


I meant I wouldn't again refer to those who know more about flamenco than I do as the 'flamenco police', I apologize for that. I am interested to know the traditional flamenco way to accompany, I wasn't joking about that.



XXX -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 15:33:40)

I was referring to your original police statement, not the "i wouldnt do it again".
I just reread your phrase in question to make sure that it referred to an artistic decision, not to a decision determined by knowledge. Sorry if im appearing like splitting hair, but im the type of person who likes to analyse very deeply *first* and come to good conclusions *afterwards* (without the help of a police, although some of it might be "inspired"). Surely nothing wrong with the "traditonal flamenco way to accompany", but i thought changing keys is obviously accepted as you can hear in the Cante accomp section and also in the video you posted. Im not sure if its necessary to apologize for submitting oneself, but i wish you good luck with your gig/rehearsals anyway and am convinced you will succeed.



Ricardo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 15:35:26)

quote:

She sings tangos por medio around 4 or 5 depending on the letra. She and the dancer played me a recording of a tangos letra they both want to do, its a man singing por arriba. When we had a go I started accompanying her por medio they said they prefer the colour of por arriba chords. We didn't go any further than that and I haven't sat down and worked on this at all but I think I will just play por medio and explain it's better for her voice.

I am sometimes working with inexperienced singers that just sing and don't know what key/capo position is best for them so I have to try and figure it out for them.


Ah ha....exactly as I suspected that's why I had a raised eyebrow....my police intuition or "spidy sense" went off.

quote:

(one more question please?)

quote:

No, it is like I said, 7 por medio


I'm confused I can play along with the Monste video in standard tuning open por arriba. Isn't capo 7 por medio (E) = open por Arriba (E)?


Sure you can play a long open....but that was my point about your situation. If your singer was ACTUALLY singing that high register (por arriba but up an octave) then my point was you can do it at all as 7 POR MEDIO, since as far as female range goes, that is really what happens. The guitar complements the voice in a way that if you accompany in a very low register for a very high singer, it doesn't match so good, the guitar is dark and muddy, the female voice high bright and clear. Conversley to accompany a very deep voiced male with a very high por medio capo postion is odd.

Anyway, you can open up the range of the instrument as modern players do by exploring different keys. Understand what is your "Home" key postion you work from. For example, Diego accompanying in D# is thinking of 6 por medio as "home" and does some bars and falsetas up high at times, other times move down for bassy open chords. Once your at that level you realize what works and what doesn't for a certain singing style.

In your case I was trying to keep it all simple por medio OR arriba....I recommend as you finally stated, somewhere around 4 por medio sounds good for her. You can split the difference and play in GRANAINA key, using a mix of chord sounds that take root on 5th string (2 por medio sound) and 6th string voicing (7 por arriba).

Hope that helps.

quote:

btw i don't get why/what few forumites here make jokes about this so called police.

what this term includes?


Nothing to see here, now move along please.

Deputy Ricardo



changue -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 20:30:16)

The flamenco police are self-appointed defenders of the faith as they see it. Unable to make musical judgments for themselves, they become fixated on 'the rules', partially understood, if at all. At the merest whiff of heresy they will rush to the front invoking Mairena and Caracol and all the saints. Their jealously-guarded 'expertise' is so important to them that they just can't wait to wave it around. These people have no aficion.

Ricardo, on the other hand, is a highly intelligent and capable musician, generous with his time and knowledge for the benefit of all on the forum.

Deputy, I'm afraid you'll have to turn in that badge...

Inspector Changue, Scotland Yard



mezzo -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 21:27:44)

change i'm affraid I disagree with you. The main reason is coz of the implicit statement you made that old school lovas are more likely to become policeman.

But I would say on the contrary that if you have a look at contemporary flamenco lovas, what you described could also happen.
The more natural example that comes to my mind is the Doc (aka ruben).
Right you could say that's an extreme example but the fact is that if you focus here on the foro you gonna find also this kind of attitude.

But because these last ones are more incline to enjoy the contemporary, they're not part of the police??
Tsss, tsss no way!! Like i said before with A and B, black and white...
Be part of the police has nothing to do with the fact you like (exclusivly) old school or not (imo)

Private detective mezz' [;)]



Mark2 -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 27 2012 23:19:37)

IMO, that's not their call. If you give them the right chords in the right key for their voice, you should have the freedom to play in any position you want. I know that guitarists are expected to accomadate singers, and in the case of a singer being on a higher level than the guitarist, I understand the dynamic.

I've been asked to play certain falsetas, even though they weren't originally played in that position, by dancers, and that to me is lame. It's the guitarist's falseta, his time to do HIS thing, not play something just to make someone else comfortable. If a falseta had certain accents which the dancer had incorporated into her dance, that's different, but still, if you hit those accents, why not play what you want? Freedom baby!

These days, with guitarists playing stuff that was always por medio or arriba, in D#, B, F#, C#, why should a dancer or singer tell you to play por medio? I really doubt Diego del Morao lets singers tell him what position or tuning to use, but who knows? Maybe depends on who he's playing for. Thoughts?


quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

She sings tangos por medio around 4 or 5 depending on the letra. She and the dancer played me a recording of a tangos letra they both want to do, its a man singing por arriba. When we had a go I started accompanying her por medio they said they prefer the colour of por arriba chords. We didn't go any further than that and I haven't sat down and worked on this at all but I think I will just play por medio and explain it's better for her voice.

I am sometimes working with inexperienced singers that just sing and don't know what key/capo position is best for them so I have to try and figure it out for them. I am a dummy with theory and transposing but I am trying to learn and when accompanying singers it's very useful in finding the right key and capo position when they don't know themselves.

Thank you Ricardo, as usual I have learnt something valuable from you that I can apply to this and to future situations.

(one more question please?)
quote:

No, it is like I said, 7 por medio

I'm confused I can play along with the Monste video in standard tuning open por arriba. Isn't capo 7 por medio (E) = open por Arriba (E)?



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 28 2012 7:04:33)

quote:

IMO, that's not their call. If you give them the right chords in the right key for their voice, you should have the freedom to play in any position you want..

..I know that guitarists are expected to accomadate singers. I really doubt Diego del Morao lets singers tell him what position or tuning to use, but who knows? Maybe depends on who he's playing for. Thoughts?


I aim for a collaboration rather than being told or me dictating what to do. In this instance this is possible but when I have played for some older, professional singers they are very definite about what key they want the guitar to be in. I haven't minded accomadating that, if they need a certain colour from the guitar to give the feeling they want. But to be fair at other times the same dogmatic singer has been persuaded so that repeated capo change/tuning didn't interupt the flow of a performance- (he acquiesced but never stopped complaining that bulerias shouldn't be por tarantas)

I have no idea about what Diego de Morao thinks, sometimes he accompanies in his altered tunings/altered keys, sometimes very traditional. I imagine it is what works best for the particular singer/cante (personal tastes but also what possibilities the pitch of the voice gives) and also what else he's going to be playing in the set?

quote:

Hope that helps.

Yes. I am a novice, only been accompanying singers for a few years so your advice is very useful. Mainly I am learning by copying youtube, playing second guitar with professionals (or even first when people are desperate) and playing alot with non professional singers but the foro and your input are very useful to me.

When I said playing along I meant up in the 7th fret, maybe ''por arriba" isn't a good description "tangos in E" may be better? I had thought of the 7 position chords being home and really liked that mix of being able to accompany up there but then being able to go to low, open chords for the dance or for remates etc.. I hadn't thought of it as "por medio at 7th fret" as you describe, thank you that is a very useful way to concieve of it for me. On reflection I can see with this singer it is probably not possible, I was going to see if I could push her voice up a tone or so!

Here's a non-flamenco tangos with that mix of open and 7th fret chords.



orsonw -> RE: Switching keys within Tangos? (Jan. 28 2012 12:36:00)

Montse Cortes, same letra (más o menos), different guitarist and guitar key-


with Diego del Morao (He doesn't come in until half way through)




with Paco Heredia




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