Sides and security (Full Version)

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El Burdo -> Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 12:28:43)

Hi. I have a couple of questions...

1) I am planing the sides at the moment prior to bending but am guessing at the thickness as the Santos plans I have don't specify a value in any direct way. I am assuming the side thickness is as the back, that is 2mm. I am happy with that but am slightly concerned about damage or cracking. The back has the lateral braces to keep things a bit more secure, but the sides? I used vertical braces on a rosewood classical I made but none are specified on my Santos plans. Would it be a good idea to use something similar on this build to add some rigidity/security?

2) With the back, I am thinking of using the dish that I use for the top, sanding the back braces to that dish - is that acceptable? Sloane doesn't say much about this as I can see.

Thanks as usual.



Stephen Eden -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 13:34:58)

2mm sides is pretty standard. you shouldnt have to much trouble.

Add some up right supports if you like. I tend to just add them to the flatter parts of my build as the more curvy bits are alot stronger.

Look at the back fitting thread that recently occurred. theres lot of info there!



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 14:20:34)

That's great, thanks SEden. If you mean the thread about radiussing, I read it before and I barely understood it tbh. I'll look a bit more for 'traditional' fitting but I have a dish with a flat upper bout and curved bottom bout and it seemed to be a good opportunity.

Thanks again.



Sean -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 16:39:55)

There are radius dishes and there are solera's your assembly work board, two very different things. The impression I got from your last post seems like your mixing them up, they are not the same thing. A solera is not meant for sanding anything and has nothing to do with the back nor should you attempt to profile the back with it.



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 16:53:12)

Hi Sean - yes, I was referring to my solera (although mine is a frame on which sits some mdf radiussed for the top and recessed to accept the bridge, and a hole to allow access through the sound hole - it doesn't look like the soleras I see here and elsewhere but I think it amounts to the same thing).
I was going to attach some sandpaper to the solera and sand the cross braces to the same profile - which would result in a back with the same profile as the top, which I thought was 'a good thing'. I'm beginning to think I am mistaken! I can remember a fair bit of what I did when I made some classical guitars 20 years ago but not much about curving the back. If anyone has a reference I could look up I'd appreciate it - or should I just buy your dvd Anders?!



Stephen Eden -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 23 2012 19:07:06)

Well I think the simplest way is to use a radius dish to get the shape on the back. This is not the out and out traditional way of doing it. Other wise perhaps a good start would be to think about doing 15' radius width ways and 25' length ways. that will give you a more traditional shape.



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 24 2012 18:35:33)

Thanks for your help SEden - I am going to do the 15'/25' thing on the back. Also, I have just come across a video on Stephen Hill who I think you learned from, and he shows a fantastic wedge system for holding the sides to the neck. Do you use that technique? I've already cut guide slots to accept the sides, which mean I can't angle the neck as the slots will be at the wrong angle but it seems now I can recut the enlarged slots to hold the sides at a new angle and use the wedges to grip! Thinking about it, do you think it's something I ought to ask out of courtesy? I hope he'd be happy and it's such a great idea.



krichards -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 25 2012 7:29:59)

quote:

but it seems now I can recut the enlarged slots to hold the sides at a new angle and use the wedges to grip!


Why?

Whats wrong with the traditional method? How many guitars have you made?



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 25 2012 9:53:16)

Hi Kevin - only two 'spanish' guitars, and there has been a hiatus of 20 years. For me it's a project only and I don't know what the tradition is, having only attended night classes, essentially following Sloane. I was hoping to gain insight from the forum which is why I joined, and it has proved to be very useful so far.

My point here is, that I cut the side slots assuming a flat neck (or rather, not realising the implications as I cut the slots, as it was what we did back then). If I angle the neck at all the slots will be out of kilter and this seemed a solution, apart from an elegant locking mechanism. I can only think that planing the neck prior to fitting the fingerboard is the other solution as an obvious contour in the fingerboard would look unacceptable I read. I can stick to what I think you mean by the traditional method if I keep the neck flat.



Stephen Eden -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 25 2012 12:15:58)

Yeah I use the wedge method and I did indeed learn it from Stephen Hill. I don't tend to get to involved with whats traditional or not, just whats best for me. There are many makers using the wedge system as it allows for alot more in the way of error correction. It also allows you to change the thickness of the sides without having to think oh I don't have a saw with that kerf.



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 25 2012 15:25:58)

quote:

It also allows you to change the thickness of the sides without having to think oh I don't have a saw with that kerf.


Yeah, that was my other worry...!

Thanks again.



krichards -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 26 2012 8:00:20)

Hi El Burdo
Its not clear to me what the problem is here, but maybe you're concerned about getting the correct neck angle with the body. And as I recall the Sloane book does not use a shaped solera in the traditional Spanish way?.
Anyway I made my first few guitars with the Sloane book and they worked out ok, although they were classicals, of course.
So why not simply follow the Sloane method to its conclusion since you've started on it?

Sorry I'm not really helping here.
Maybe someone else can shed some light.



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 26 2012 9:38:08)

Hi Kevin

It's OK, the points I was asking about, the problems, were developing with time!
My first point about side thickness and braces was answered.

My second was about contouring the back. Sloane seems very vague about precise contouring and maybe so was my class when we did it, but I was wondering, incorrectly about using the same dish as used for the soundboard on the solera. That has been answered too now, by you and others.

The latest observation was from seeing Stephen Hill use a wedge to attach sides. I have up-to-now (ie both times...) made the neck at 180 degrees but wanted to exercise a bit more control and use a small forward angle. In fact to even measure things at all! Having already prepared (guides for) the side slots in the neck for this 180 deg it occurred to me that the side wedge thing was after all going to allow me to have the neck at 182 degrees say and re-cut the slots, then use a wedge.

So, all in all, I think all my points have been answered and I know what to do - I just have work out how to contour the back with more precision than just guesswork and how to arch the back from top to bottom in addition to the lateral curve. I know I could just buy Courtnall or Cumpiano but the bank of Burdo is fully in recession.

Out of interest I attach a picture of the frame which I am using for a solera. I guess I must plane a neck slot downwards a bit - 2mm at the nut bought forward to the edge of the frame. Or maybe tack the extra neck at the top. Close inspection will reveal that I am doing all of this in a one bed flat in London so a new solera is unlikely!! I have decided not to put the bridge on first though - the contour of the top will be as it is once braced and I will now fit the bridge afterwards. In CLCM we obviously attached the bridge before the build.

Anyway, thanks for your interest. I love those pictures of Sacromonte.



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krichards -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 26 2012 15:59:28)

I'd recommend a new solera when you can manage it. You need to include a neck extension planed down to the required angle and also some slots and blocks to retain the sides.
Its all explained pretty well in Courtnells book. Expensive but very good, if a little dated now.
This picture shows my solera



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El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 26 2012 17:36:22)

Hi Kevin - I guess so - the neck doesn't have anywhere to go on my current workboard. At the moment I use block sides ('lumber' in Sloane) shaped and surfaced to fit a particular guitar (a Torres Classical). I was thinking of reshaping them, but the moveable blocks are a nicer idea.

Is there no end to this auxiliary expense? I've just bought some screwthreaded rods etc. to make a go-bar deck. I was going to buy some 6mm dowling but it seems a bit rigid, so maybe something flatter. Fibreglass is an other possibility it seems. What do you use?

Thanks for your help.



krichards -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 27 2012 7:50:53)

quote:

I was going to buy some 6mm dowling but it seems a bit rigid, so maybe something flatter. Fibreglass is an other possibility it seems. What do you use?


All sorts: some dowelling some garden canes, some cedar strips etc.
Anything bendy will do , you just need a few different lengths to accomodate different internal parts.
Just proceed by trial and error; thats the way I normally do things. There's just no substitute for experience.



El Burdo -> RE: Sides and security (Jan. 27 2012 8:58:20)

No, I've never been a short cut kinda guy!



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