Slipping pegs??? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 20:50:29)

Do luthiers generally fit friction tuning pegs to each hole?

I just changed a set of strings and removed all the pegs to clean the face of the headstock.

I think I replaced them in different holes, because some of them bind up really tight, and other just keep slipping and wont stay in tune? Do I have to take them all out again and keep trying until I find the right ones in the right holes??? How many possible combinations is that ? ( N(N-1) /2 ??? Hope not. . . )


Any suggestions anybody?



estebanana -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 21:09:54)

I hate to tell you this.....but yes each one is usually fit to a certain hole. [:D]

You might have to do some careful refitting- be gentle because the peg could change the shape of the hole if you force it. Unless someone else has a clever guy idea



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 21:39:41)

quote:

I hate to tell you this.....but yes each one is usually fit to a certain hole.


S**T!!! That's what I was dreading to hear. Wish I'd known that before. I would have marked them individually.

I've been contemplating having geared pegs fitted. Maybe now's the time?



Doitsujin -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 21:54:35)

quote:

Any suggestions anybody?


I would ask my local luthier to carve out the pegs completely and replace them with a good set of modern mechanics. I see no advantages of pegs at all.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 23:43:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Do I have to take them all out again and keep trying until I find the right ones in the right holes??? How many possible combinations is that ? ( N(N-1) /2 ??? Hope not. . . )


We always scratch the string number into the button so there's no doubt which hole belongs to which peg. You're stuck with trial and error unfortunately.



estebanana -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 18 2012 23:50:00)

You should be able to figure it out or at least get close. I put a swatch of masking tape on each grip and then write the string number on the tape. But I might etch the number on if it were my own guitar.



Shawn Brock -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 0:05:27)

See Britguy, that's what you get for cleaning your guitar. You should go around with it looking like s**t like most of us do. LOL

You are on the right path I think with the idea of getting Planetary Pegs put in. I love them, and I'm sure that's what I'll have in my next guitar. Though I like traditional ebony pegs when fitted well... Love those mechanicals the best though!

If you don't have a guitar maker around, check with a violin shop. Those guys can install them as well. Heck you could probably put them in yourself if you wanted to order the tools, but a guy who cleans his guitar probably can't trust himself for that kind of work and would want a pro. In other words, keep doing what you are doing, and don't fall into the trap that us non-cleaning, self diagnosing wanta be guitar techs have fallen into...

I'm going to clean my guitar now, and try to change my foolish ways. And no, this is not a joke.

Thanks for inspiring me Britguy. The check is in the mail...



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 8:25:11)

I´ve built 20+ guitars with pegs and I´ve learned that if you start shaving your pegs to the exact same size, and you the ream to the same size, the all pegs fit all holes.

This with fitting a peg to a hole or visa versa is because the shaving has not been done or not been done properly. Some builders buy their pegs and ream a hole. Thats why pegheads have such a bad reputation.

Britguy, before doing anything radical, get some creamy soap and some fine pumice powder (chalk can do) make a good blend and put it on the pegs. If they slip, put more pumice, if they stick, put on some more soap.

I used to play classical violin without fine tuners, so I know about pegs.



Flamingrae -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 10:25:40)

quote:

I used to play classical violin without fine tuners, so I know about pegs.


I'm with this approach 100% - also you may find that with a bit of careful selection you'll find most of the original peg/hole match ups if they are as bad as you say. You'll prob get 4 right and 2 that you wont have a clue about.
Chalk was another substitute if you dont have pumice to hand.
Properly fitted pegs are just not a problem.[8|]



Flamingrae -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 10:28:06)

Sorry Anders - just saw you put the bit about chalk down - oops.



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 11:36:14)

Thank you for giving me an idea of what to try with my vintage pegged guitar.
It is such a horror ...

Now I´m almost sure:
It´s not just because of the unsuitable tapering, or the following awkward usage of its former owners, but certainly mix-up of the pegs that ads to the misery.

Could be an experimental project for tonight!
- Why didn´t I think of it before?!

Ruphus



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 13:59:15)

quote:

before doing anything radical, get some creamy soap and some fine pumice powder (chalk can do) make a good blend and put it on the pegs. If they slip, put more pumice, if they stick, put on some more soap.


This sounds like fun. . .you start with both pumice and the soap in a 50/50 blend? then add more of one or the other according to slip or stick? I think maybe I'll try that in combination with Stephen's idea of trying to 'match' the pegs/hole etc. Right now I have two that slip continually, and two that stick almost rock solid.

I thought maybe I'd remove all the pegs and start by trying each one in each hole until most of them seemed to work O.K. without slipping. Then; using Anders' magic mixture I'd try to get them all working smoothly again. They were not perfect before, so maybe they'll be better with the treatment?

Meanwhile, our local 'pro-guitarist' shop wants six weeks and about 240 bucks to retrofit geared pegs! For a poor old bugger like me, thats a lot of haircuts. . .



etta -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 14:30:04)

I second the idea on mechanical pegs; With "pegheds"I play more now on the strings instead of with the pegs.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 19 2012 15:50:13)

Britguy
The magic mix is just old school for what is nowadays called pegdope. You can buy it. The mix dpends on the soap. But its not a problem. The pegs will tell you if you´re doing it right. If they slip, more pumice, if they slip more soap. And after that, clean the guitar with the pegs in the holes.

I expect that the 240 dollars include the machine pegs. Fitting them is a couple of hours (or less)



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 20 2012 9:45:07)

Took out all the pegs yesterday for to figure out which ones might fit best in which hole, by trying to feel where they fit most evenly.

The new allocation couldn´t even out the fact that things are worn out, but the situation changed from almost unusable to rather managable.

Thank you for the hints! :O)

Ruphus



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 20 2012 11:59:53)

did you add some pegdope?



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 20 2012 15:03:25)

Only some chalk to the three most slipping ones.
But will probably be treating another two tonight.

Thanks for asking!

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 20 2012 17:51:15)

quote:

I think maybe I'll try that in combination with Stephen's idea of trying to 'match' the pegs/hole etc. Right now I have two that slip continually, and two that stick almost rock solid.


I would do that. Even though as Anders said you fit the pegs in the beginning so they can fit any hole, the reality is they wear differently over time and each peg fits itself into its own hole. ( Ebony has a high silica content and this causes it to wear out other woods. Pegs can also change shape over the years.) If you find the proper sequence and then do the soap and pumice you should be pretty good. The pumice remains the same, but soap density a body varies from brand to brand. Get a hard bar soap and experiment with half each and less soap if it slips. In the end you may need less of this compound than you think a little soap goes a long way.

There is also pegdope which you can buy at violin shops.



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 23 2012 11:29:31)

Bumpy de bump.

Looks as if the pegs are settling in their new old holes. At least did they function distinctively better last night, compared to the day before.

I have a question regarding mechanical pegs.
Read an installation manual once and think to remember that it was required to make wooden dowels. ( Drill larger, put in spar, then drill into that for the mechanical pegs bracket to fit in.)

Hence, action you can´t do on the fly with your average households toolbox.
Is that right?

Why won´t the manufacturer just offer a bracket that fit into say a ~ 13 mm hole?

Thanx,

Ruphus



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 23 2012 17:39:45)

The mechanical pegs I installed on a new guitar needed a 9mm hole. How you end up with a hole of that size doesnt matter as long as you dont damage things.



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 23 2012 19:04:22)

quote:

did you add some pegdope?


I just bought a couple of things from the local violin shop. One is from W.E. Hill (UK) and is like a tube of dark brown lipstick; the other is an orange-coloured liquid called 'peg drops compound' - "for slipping and creaking pegs", it says. . .

I'm not sure at this point which one to use for what purpose, but I will try each of them in the near future and see if they help.



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 23 2012 19:06:05)

Thank you for the heads up, Anders.
Sounds good in terms of simple home working!
Where the ones you installed of the Planetary Pegs brand?

Thanks again.
-

Looking forward to hearing how the compounds will work out for you, Britguy.


Ruphus



Sean -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 23 2012 21:40:34)

The drops are for the slipping pegs and the lipstick is for the sticking ones



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 8:45:50)

Ruphus
They were from pegheds.com

Its years ago I installed them. I might be wrong but I think I only needed a 9mm drill bit and that the reamer wasnt in action. Why dont you contact them?
Another thing is that I wasnt a big fan of them. They felt fragile and they are thick which looks wrong in my eyes.
I think I´ll build a guitar with mechanical pegs within to long. Its been so long that I have a feeling that my comments are not really based on practice. You know the brain and the little grey ones.[;)]

Which ones should I use?



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 11:40:58)

Thank you, Anders.

I too would like to hear first which brand is the better one, before trying to research and see whether I can get my hands on them.

- I think to have seen pics of some mechanical pegs that don´t look clumsy. Guess it must have been the Planetary ones.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

The drops are for the slipping pegs and the lipstick is for the sticking ones


Interesting. I would had rather expected liquid compound for sticky pegs and thick stuff for splipping pegs.

Ruphus



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 19:55:27)

quote:

I too would like to hear first which brand is the better one, before trying to research and see whether I can get my hands on them.


There's a comprehensive review on mechanical pegs, done in "American Lutherie" magazine, that you might like to read. I cant attach it here (not sure why, but it wont 'paste'?) but can probably email direct to you if you wish. Or, you can access the Pegheds website (www.pegheds.com) and find it in there. Its in PDF format.



Ruphus -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 20:36:28)

Thank you, BG,

Just tried to find the review there, to no avail.
Would you be so kind to post the direct URL, please? ( The address line shown in your browser when you look at the PDF or PDF symbol.)

Also their installation PDFs wouldn´t open nor download.
Their website is neglected anway, to say the least. No love, no creativity, no adjustment.

On the demo violine pictures the pegs dont look too clumsy, and one make with ball ends looks like real and even good.
But couldn´t find pics of guitar pegs there.

Ruphus



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 21:29:54)

The PDF files came directly from Chuck Herin, (Mr. Pegheds himself) in an email. There is no URL for the files that I can find to post here??? Sorry!

I think if you email Mr.Herin directly through his website he will send you the files.

He has very little instructions on installing the pegs in guitars - most of his stuff is for violins, violas and cellos. The guitar Pegheds are available in several sizes 7,8 & 9 mm nominal hole size. And he has about three different styles of pegs for guitars, one of which is based on the old Ramirez pattern from a few years back.

I have an old peghead that I've been thinking of converting to mechanical pegs. So I've been researching them for a while. The Toronto "12th Fret" luthiers have installed lots of them and claim they work really well.



Sean -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 21:45:02)

I'd go with these pegheads[;)]
If these ones stick just give them some alcohol, they loosen right up

[;)]

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



britguy -> RE: Slipping pegs??? (Jan. 24 2012 22:43:03)

quote:

I'd go with these pegheads


Sorry; I think maybe they're all a bit too young for me. . .

Nice thought though. . .



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