RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Full Version)

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Gimar Yestra -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 10 2012 22:10:56)

someone told me today that 664mm scale was used alot in earlier days, I guess he followed tradition.



erictjie -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 10 2012 22:50:55)

I have blanca with mexican cypress, negra spruce top with brazi rosewood and classical guitar cedar top with brazi rosewood , i think they all in 650mm . i found his guitars are superb and the sound much better month after month, i guess my playing getting better too. i am going to order 660 mm from him again this year , i think when it is capoed longer scale is better.



orsonw -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 11 2012 9:38:09)

quote:

someone told me today that 664mm scale was used alot in earlier days


I know there are 1970's Condes up to 670mm.

I think Stephen is right calling us princesses but after all this is an internet forum and probably attracts a certain kind of guitar nerd (myself included). I know it doesn't reflect attitudes of all flamenco guitarists in the real world who often play brilliantly on guitars that many here would judge to have difficult playability.



Ricardo -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 11 2012 22:18:40)

quote:

As a builder I would like to know what players think about builders giving advices on scale length, nut width etc. Most builders dont play or play very little. How did they come to the conclusion that 660 is better than 650. Not by their own playing.


It's silly that people complain about it so much...sorry guys. I mean I trust in a luthier because these freaking milimeters don't mean much in the big picture. I was shocked when I actually measured some of my guitars at the differences in scale length....and I am a small handed guy but I dont' prefer the small guitar. Not saying I prefer a BIGGER guitar either. The MAIN issue is action, that's all.

Now if a guitar looks weird in size then I might be concerned like if it was like a ukelele sized thing or like an electric bass guitar size!![:D][:D]


Anyone play baseball? We usually warm up when we were kids by swinging 2 bats cuz it makes one bat feel like a twig. Anyone complaining about "stretches" based on a difference of 10 or 20 milimeters needs to play some scales and chords on a bass guitar for a few minutes.

Conversely, the big guys that complain about small guitars being difficult....just pick up a child size guitar or ukelele and work through some things you normally play on guitar. You can adapt trust me. The technique difficulties of guitar playing should not be question of milimeters of a stretch.



estebanana -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 11 2012 23:12:47)

Ricardo, if you look at the differences between frets on the scale chart I posted you can see how much bigger each fret distance is between different scales. They increase from fret to fret in increments of tenths of mm's. The difference between 650 and 660 is spread out over a distance of about 12 1/2" -


Looking at the first 5 frets on both scales you can see how much difference there is between scales:

Scale length: 660

660
1: 37.043
2: 72.007
3: 105.008
4: 136.158
5: 165.559

650:
1: 36.482
2: 70.916
3: 103.417
4: 134.095
5: 163.05


Difference between 650 and 660 on Frets 1 thru 5: In other words 660 is this many mm farther from the nut at each fret than 650.

1: 0.561 mm
2: 1.091
3: 1.591
4: 2.063
5: 2.509

By the time you get to the fifth fret the frets are already closer together. Not that I'm trying to make people mad, but more to see if we can look at scale objectively. The difference in distance from the nut are not that much.

I have a difficult time with both the concept that there is a major difference between the way 650 and 660 guitars both sound and play. The difference is distributed over the fingerboard.

Just curious what you guys think when you see the actual numbers?



Shawn Brock -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 3:34:06)

Boys, all I know is I play the guitar, not the numbers. I think that a 660 guitar that's set up well can and will play better than a 650 guitar with a bad setup. That don't mean that I'm committed to ordering one though... I think the big deal is the extra space on the first few frets, at least that's the big deal for most of us who do a decent amount of open playing... Apparently Anders can feel the difference just as I can. Call me a wuss if you like, but when I make an investment in an instrument, playability, volume and tone are my biggest considerations. If a person is just going to spend his life barring chords, give him a 690 scale and be done with it. He will adapt, or mess up his hands trying... We all should be open to adapting to different scale lengths, in the end it will only make you a better player, but that don't mean you should choose a scale length that your not comfortable with... After all of this time I'm still wondering why the hell we don't concentrate on the neck length and the number of frets, and not the scale length? I have played guitars which have a 54 MM nut, and though I could tell it, they were still quite playable because they were set up great. Someone said that they thought it was impossible for a person to tell the difference in a 650 and a 655 scale, and all I know is that I can. That don't mean that I can't play a 655, but I can tell a difference. Its funny to me that some people think that no one can tell the difference in 650 and 655, but lots of the same people say they can always tell the difference in the nut width. This leaves me shaking my head in wonder... How is it that you can feel 1 MM of difference at the nut and not an extra 5/10 MM spread out over the neck? Maybe its being blind that makes me this way... Not having to worry about looking at the frets and my fretting hand makes a difference. Not that any of you watch your left hand or anything... Or perhaps my preferences come from my experience playing the violin for quite a few years. When you have no frets, space relationships are quite important to your left hand. You develop muscle memory in your left hand and teach your fingers to land in certain spots. Playing the guitar is much the same way to me, so maybe its that... Also I play for hours each day, and maybe that just makes my left hand to familiar with the spaces between the frets? I don't know... Maybe I just don't like change... Though flamenco should be an evolving art form, maybe I'm on the path to becoming a purest, or an old man at 30 who is set in his ways... Or maybe I just don't know jack s**t about what I'm feeling on the fretboard, but after 22 years of playing, I don't think that's the case. Of course, I could always be wrong about that too. Either way I'm glad we can talk about this. I love reading the numbers and seeing how it all comes together and hearing the thoughts of others. Who knows a 660 guitar may be in my future after all... Gosh, my posts are always to damn long!



elroby -> [Deleted] (Jan. 12 2012 6:04:23)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2012 4:16:12



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 7:36:19)

Stephen, I know the numbers and I also know how much 2,5mm is spread over 5 frets.[8D] And I agree, Not much there. more or less 0,5mm a fret
Some other meassures which are important is the difference when playing with a capo on the 5th fret like you do a lot when playing with singers. Some players note a huge difference between 650 and 660 scale when playing with capo on 5th fret.
If you make a comparision of the distances betwen the frets from 5 to 10, you´ll see a scary difference of something like just under 1,5mm. (I havent looked it up this time, but its more or less that.) 1,5 mm over 5 frets is more or less 0,3mm a fret.

Everyone now, take your caliper and meassure 0,3mm and look at it....



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 7:42:34)

quote:

The MAIN issue is action, that's all.


To this I´ll add pulsation and recovery. The stiffness of the guitar and how fast it responds to your inputs. And this is something very personal. No golden rules here but few want a very stiff or a very soft guitar.

My experience when pro players test guitars is that they check if the guitar sounds well and responds to their playing. If it doesnt, then they dont care about the guitar. If they like it, they play it and test the setup, if it feels good all over the fretboard. If it it does, then sometimes it can be difficult to take the guitars out of their hands. They NEVER ask about the scale length.

The nut width and string spacing is another story. They can be very picky with that.



XXX -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 10:23:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
They NEVER ask about the scale length.



They shouldnt need to ask anything if they have the chance to test it in person.
I would certainly do some stretchy chords and see if i can play them comftbly. Of course scale length is not the only decisive factor in that, but if two guitars were identical in all aspects, except one is 65 the other being 66, then the latter one WILL BE, 100% guaranteed, harder to play on stretchy chords. Since guitars vary quite a bit in almost all dimensions, you need to test it. And because you need to test it anyway, you dont need to ask any questions.

quote:

The nut width and string spacing is another story.


and maybe add neck thickness. I think these four things nut/string space/neck thickness/action are the most important factors in a guitar, not scale length btw. I guess it is because of historical reasons the scale length is more often mentioned then the other factors.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 11:43:59)

quote:

and maybe add neck thickness.


Of course. Thats important. I totally agree with your post. When I test someones guitar I never ask about all these meassures. If I like it, then maybe I´ll ask.



kudo -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 13:36:04)

quote:



Gosh, my posts are always to damn long!



Yes, they are.


no they are not compared to ruphus, I seriously cant read some of his posts, way too long!!!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 12 2012 13:50:30)

[Deleted by Admins]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 16:46:41)

quote:

but hey variety is the spice of life they say


And its what makes guitarbuilders go crazy.[8D] You have this very nice guitar, 655/53 and the client wants a 650/53[8|]



estebanana -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 17:29:34)

I like to build 655 scales that way it covers both the players who want 650 and 660.

As far as nut width, I think you can get used to wider nut width in about two weeks. That said I prefer to build to 52-

Let's spit more hairs!

See guitar makers think about these tiny measurements, but scale is only the beginning, we think about all kinds of stuff that never occur to players; such as, where do you split the 19th fret with the curve of the sound hole?

Many of these measurements become unconscious factors when players look at guitars, they know they like it but they can't quite understand why. All these little things add up to give the guitar an artistic physical presence.



estebanana -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 17:33:56)

quote:

Gosh, my posts are always to damn long!


They are fine, just use paragraphs for each separate idea. Ruphus uses paragraphs, you can too.

( ducks and runs)



britguy -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 12 2012 19:54:06)

quote:

What is your nut to 12th fret distance? 330 mm or 331mm? Or something else?


This post seems to have genereated a lot more responses than I thought! But I think us 'players' are all learning something here. I know that I'm learning a lot! One being that string length and scale length are two different things. Never realized that!

Now I have arrived back at my home in Canada (I took delivery of the guitar in Florida, USA, while on Xmas vacation) I can measure the dimensions with more accuracy than the primitive fabric tape measure I was using in Florida.

The inside-nut face to the (estimated) centre of the 12th fret is exactly 331.5 mm, measured along the centre-line of the fingerboard.

I also checked my previous 660mm Castillo (also granadillo) negra - built last April - and it meaures identical to this one - 331.5 to 12th fret.

Just out of interest, my BRW Castillo negra - built December 2010; is a 650mm nominal scale length, and this one measures exactly 326mm from nut to 12th fret.

I should add that my only purpose in measuring the guitar was to compare it with my other two Castillo's - which are different lengths, and nut widths.

The guitar is playing very well right now, after about one week of quite hard use. And, like the other two, has that distinct Castillo sound. Very flamenco. . . (at least I think so - not that I claim any special expertise here, just an opinion).

The really interesting thing is how different each of them feels and plays. I'm sure I could pick each one up while blindfolded and tell which one I'm playing?

I can perhaps post a few pics if anybody's interested? Unfortunately I have no means of recording sound files.



Sean -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 1:52:51)

Ya so it's a 664 scale guitar, .5mm compensation at the nut and your 650 if he compensates the nut also .5 could actually be a 653mm scale guitar with a string length of about 654.5. It's all just numbers, neck thickness, width, shape, string spacing are more important and noticeable to the player.
You have to post a pic since we talked about it for two pages already [;)]



kudo -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 2:00:29)

quote:

The inside-nut face to the (estimated) centre of the 12th fret is exactly 331.5 mm, measured along the centre-line of the fingerboard.

I also checked my previous 660mm Castillo (also granadillo) negra - built last April - and it meaures identical to this one - 331.5 to 12th fret.

Just out of interest, my BRW Castillo negra - built December 2010;


damn you lucky b***ard, 3 negras from the Maestro, and you STILL had doubts on your 3rd guitar?? common get outta here!!! [:D][:D] hahah

MAN, I would be so interested in trying out the negras you have against my castillo negra and castillo blanca, seriously!!



KMMI77 -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 3:28:33)

Here is Paco testing a guitar. He doesn't say it but you can tell, the whole time he is thinking, Is this a 655 or 660 scale[:D]




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 7:35:43)

quote:

Here is Paco testing a guitar. He doesn't say it but you can tell, the whole time he is thinking, Is this a 655 or 660 scale

Actually in an interview in Spanish TV, he said that the last 2 years or so, the only thing he´s been thinking about is wheather his next guitar should be 655 or 660. He still hasnt found out.



orsonw -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 8:15:43)

quote:

Here is Paco testing a guitar. He doesn't say it but you can tell, the whole time he is thinking, Is this a 655 or 660 scale


No, what he's really thinking is:

"Yes, this is a very good guitar but I prefer my 664/53 Conde!"



XXX -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 8:56:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn Brock
How is it that you can feel 1 MM of difference at the nut and not an extra 5/10 MM spread out over the neck?


1mm of 52mm is about 2%, whereas 5mm of 650mm is less than 1%. But thats not even the most important thing i guess. The longer scale is only notable on stretchy chords imo and adapting to that affects more your elbow than your fingers. Nut width affects directly your finger placement and if the neck shape/thickness changes, even your WHOLE HAND. If someone knows about this please correct me, but i think muscle memory of your fingers are more important than shoulders etc. when playing guitar, because 1mm in the wrong direction in fretting can make the string buzz. (im pretty sure even less)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 10:36:54)

Deniz
I agree. Many players should learn to take their left arm elbow further away from their body.



Sean -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 14:39:05)

The Erez Perelman listed on the GSI site is only 640mm, Paco is probably wondering where the rest of the neck is and I don't think he looks comfortable around that guitar.
Not that there is anything wrong with being 640, I'm just saying.



estebanana -> [Deleted] (Jan. 13 2012 16:19:42)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 13 2012 16:19:54



estebanana -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 16:22:47)

quote:

Actually in an interview in Spanish TV, he said that the last 2 years or so, the only thing he´s been thinking about is wheather his next guitar should be 655 or 660. He still hasnt found out.


Yes but what is really happening behind the scenes is that Paco is struggling to move on to a 670, but he does not think his technique or hands are large enough and he is in psycho therapy for feelings of inadequacy and shame.



Shawn Brock -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 13 2012 17:11:08)

We could probably go around and around on this for a while... I remain open to the idea of 660... Maybe it does or doesn't affect the playability and or stretching of the left hand. Just like it may or may not positively affect the sound.

I'm also with Anders when he says that players need to get used to not having their left elbow pressed in on the body. When I first started trying to play flamenco I couldn't get used to having the guitar over my right knee. It seemed like I wanted to pull my left arm to close to my side. I over came that, and now prefer playing over the right knee, though at times I will still play for a minute or two over the left knee, just to make sure I still can... This is a little strange because I have always played steel string over my right knee, but electric over my left. Who knows?

I know one thing, this list is a ball! I love it!



britguy -> RE: Scale length longer than ordered? (Jan. 14 2012 16:56:44)

quote:

I know that Castillo's best negras are with the Granadillo backs. so YOU HAVE AN AWESOME GUITAR!! CONGRATS!! I would like to play a Castillo Granadillo negra some day and compare it with my palo escrito negra!!
POST PICTURES !


O.K. some of you guys asked to see some pics. Here are a few: I make no apologies for the image quality. They were just shot with a cheap Canon point 'n shoot.



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