Bb major chord is killing me (Full Version)

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HuBaghdadi -> Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 21 2011 23:15:18)

Hi,
The Bb major chord is killing me, I can't play it at all. Unclean sounds and weak index finger.
Any tips or exercises how to play this chord?
Thanks all for help and time.



rombsix -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 21 2011 23:59:10)

Play it with index finger on the first fret of the fifth string, and the middle finger, ring finger, and small finger on the third fret of the fourth, third, and second strings respectively. Then you don't have to use barre technique.

Another thing I can suggest is to start with a capo on the fifth fret, and try to play the chord (with barre) there. Then warm up a bit with that, and take the capo down to the fourth fret. Take some time playing it there (with barre), and keep going down with the capo until you get to NO capo and playing the chord (with barre). That helps your fingers stretch and your hand won't be "shocked" with having to use too much muscle power right away (it's harder to play barre on the first fret than it is on the fifth fret).

Cheers!



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 22 2011 18:12:05)

You may also be able to play it as jazz guitarists do, using the 3rd finger to hold down the 2nd, 3rd & 4th strings and bending it backwards slightly to clear the 1st, making a mini-barré.

If your 3rd won’t bend, try the 4th.

These methods feel strange at first, but they have the advantage that they make the shape easy to play at high frets, since you’re only using one finger to hold down 3 strings. Also, if you use the 3rd finger, it’s easy to move to the corresponding 6th or 7th chord.

Of course, there are time when you can’t use this technique.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 22 2011 21:41:09)

IMHO, thats a bad advice Paul. The way Rombsix explain it is THE way because it makes you change into other chords "por medio" very easily which can be very important especially when yo accompany cante.
The position of the ring and small finger is a fixed position where you do so manny little things, changing chords, doing little runs etc without lifting these fingers from their position. Its a very flamenco tecnique.



mezzo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 22 2011 23:05:26)

quote:

The position of the ring and small finger is a fixed position where you do so manny little things

like the typical por medio arpeggios or alzapua.
This pivot position of the fingers is vital. You can't cut it. I never notice a real flamenco guitarist doing Paul' suggestion.



ToddK -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 0:41:29)

---0------
---3------
---0------
---3------
---1------
---x------



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 0:56:01)

quote:

IMHO, thats a bad advice Paul. The way Rombsix explain it is THE way because it makes you change into other chords "por medio" very easily which can be very important especially when yo accompany cante.
The position of the ring and small finger is a fixed position where you do so manny little things, changing chords, doing little runs etc without lifting these fingers from their position. Its a very flamenco tecnique.


I’m not saying do it all the time; clearly, if you need to move fingers up, dowen and sideways, you can’t. Just that it’s a useful technique to have in your repertoire.

quote:

I never notice a real flamenco guitarist doing Paul' suggestion.


No one was playing any kind of jazz chords until Lucía started. Someone always has to be the first. And some chords can't be played any other way than by barring with your 2nd, 3rd or 4th finger.

“We don’t do it this way here” reminds me of the story of Don Nagle, the Marine who tried to show the Isshinryu school an uppercut (I think it was), which apparently they’d never seen, when he was stationed in Okinawa in 1957. That was their response.

So he entered the All Okinawan Karate Championships as a White Belt and won it, knocking all their Black Belts flat.



RTC -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 6:25:45)

I am using this advice for many of my problems, It sounds so logical.
Thanks



ToddK -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 9:05:44)

quote:

jazz chords


No such thing as "jazz" chords. Jazz is a style of music, not a type of chord.



Ricardo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 9:06:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

---0------
---3------
---0------
---3------
---1------
---x------

yep....also

0
3
3
3
1
X
Again no barre....barre is only for that first fret note on E string so play those two then gently rock your index down to try to stop the high E and sound that first fret. Don't apply more pressure then is necessary to make just that note sound (while still holding the others)....then you got it.

Ricardo



XXX -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 11:41:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

The position of the ring and small finger is a fixed position where you do so manny little things

like the typical por medio arpeggios or alzapua.
This pivot position of the fingers is vital. You can't cut it. I never notice a real flamenco guitarist doing Paul' suggestion.


there is a tomatito lick that uses the little finger to press down strings 1,2 and 3. Not often, but sometimes its useful.



Mark2 -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 16:33:30)

Finger the chord, and play the notes one at a time with the goal of getting every note to ring clear. When your hand starts getting tired, stop, and work on picado or another techinque, then go back to it. repeat and repeat until you get it, which you will if you keep at it.

Also, Finger the chord, then switch to the next chord, without even playing with your right hand. Get your hand used to moving between the Bb and other chords. Baby steps. I still remember when I started playing guitar over 36 years ago, and almost quit the first day I tried to play a bar chord-it was so hard.

We all had to suffer at the beginning. Come to think of it, the struggle really never ends.



quote:

ORIGINAL: HuBaghdadi

Hi,
The Bb major chord is killing me, I can't play it at all. Unclean sounds and weak index finger.
Any tips or exercises how to play this chord?
Thanks all for help and time.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 19:51:42)

quote:

No such thing as "jazz" chords. Jazz is a style of music, not a type of chord.


[:(] OK, if you insist: chords that are more frequently found in jazz and dance-band arrangements than in other types of guitar music.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 23 2011 21:00:44)

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Paul Magnussen -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 23 2011 21:38:04)

quote:

As a style of music, are the harmonies unique to it?


Returning to the topic that started this discussion, which was barring with fingers other than the first: here are some examples (using Todd’s notation) of the type of chords I was referring to.

B9 (2nd inversion)

---2------
---2------
---2------
---1------
---2------
---2------

Fmaj7

---5------
---5------
---2------
---3------
---3------
---1------

G9 (4th inversion)

---5------
---6------
---4------
---5------
---5------
---5------



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 23 2011 22:08:24)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 23 2011 22:11:59)

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Ricardo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 25 2011 23:14:51)

quote:

Hinge barre with first finger results in aug6th chord NOT Bb7...Bb7 is enharmonic but the g# is functional...it leads to the tonic.


not if you use it modally as Bb lydian dominant, or even move to an Eb next. Only if the next chord is actually an A major is it G#aug6. And further, aug6 harmony is implying D as tonic, not A necessarily.

but we know what you mean anyway.[;)][:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 26 2011 5:58:06)

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mezzo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 26 2011 8:26:43)

quote:

Since the flamenco tonic is the V (reinterpreted as I)

hey Romerito are you referring to the Vm7b5?

I started a topic about this one. Some questions remain on hold. Would be nice if you could have a look there [:)]

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=182581&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1



Ricardo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Nov. 26 2011 14:39:40)

quote:

Tonic is irrelevant. Functionality IS NOT. Augmented chords lead to V chords in minor. Since the flamenco tonic is the V (reinterpreted as I), augmented sixth chords lead perfectly to the tonic...BUT YOU KNEW THAT TOO.


Sure, but since you are going to change tonic too, why not invent a new name for the move too? I am just saying I have no problems with a Bb7 occuring in por medio key without having to name it something else. Functionality of harmony, ultimately is about sound, there is no difference of sound by spelling the notes of a chord WRONG. Also the other aug6 they miss spell with an E natural....I don't think that is necessary either. Bb7#11 is fine even if there is no F natural, or Bb7b5 is fine too. The functional purpose that the ear draws from need not be cluttered by the practice of naming chords by aug6. It's simple Bb->A II-I if you will, where the II can be colored in different ways...or not.

I really don't like the practice they came up with much either for classical. Augmented should be reserved as a term for intervals that would be perfect vs major or minor. Otherwise we open a confusing door to name any doubly raised interval "augmented"....like Augmented 2 (think of a #9 chord) etc. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but that is just me.

One more example in context of flamenco that sort of "breaks the rules". This type of voicing can and does happen a lot:

x----x-
3----2-
3----2-
3----2-
5----4-
4----3-

So we have the point of calling it aug6 and NOT simply Bb7 dominant chord, is because the G# would be a voice leading to the V chord (phyrgian tonic). But there is no actual voice leading. So the idea that you would have to notate or think G#-->G natural, kills the whole point of mozart or whoever was using these chords. You MUST have it go to A in the bass or even up higher in the voicing...other wise they would have notated the chord with Ab-->G for sure for sake of voice leading. Even the version of Bb with hinge barre you wrote going to open A7 is a problem. The middle G# MUST go up to A for it to get an "aug6" designation.

Hope you get where I am at. I am not saying you shouldn't use Aug6 to describe the function SOMETIMES, but it is simply not such a big deal in Flamenco to think it is ALWAYS gonna be a G# instead of Ab in your Bb chords as per flamenco.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 27 2011 0:07:29)

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estebanana -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Dec. 1 2011 3:47:18)

quote:

The Bb major chord is killing me, I can't play it at all. Unclean sounds and weak index finger.
Any tips or exercises how to play this chord?


Put the cejilla on the 5th fret and practice it there for a few days, then move the cejilla down a fret every three or four days until you can play it open. It should take about two weeks for your finger to get strong enough if you play that chord for ten minutes every day.

Done and done.



rombsix -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Dec. 1 2011 3:54:17)

quote:

Put the cejilla on the 5th fret and practice it there for a few days, then move the cejilla down a fret every three or four days until you can play it open. It should take about two weeks for your finger to get strong enough if you play that chord for ten minutes every day.


Stephen? [:@][:-][8|][:D]

quote:

start with a capo on the fifth fret, and try to play the chord (with barre) there. Then warm up a bit with that, and take the capo down to the fourth fret. Take some time playing it there (with barre), and keep going down with the capo until you get to NO capo and playing the chord (with barre). That helps your fingers stretch and your hand won't be "shocked" with having to use too much muscle power right away (it's harder to play barre on the first fret than it is on the fifth fret).



Ricardo -> RE: Bb major chord is killing me (Dec. 2 2011 20:09:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HuBaghdadi

Hi,
The Bb major chord is killing me, I can't play it at all. Unclean sounds and weak index finger.
Any tips or exercises how to play this chord?
Thanks all for help and time.



Now look, what you NEED to do is put the capo on, oh I don't know lets say the 5th fret....then after you can do THAT move the capo down a fret...and keep doin that until you finally can get it down at first fret.

Good luck!



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