On music in general (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> On music in general (May 8 2005 21:27:11)

I just watched the VE Day celebrations from Trafalgar Square, London.
Very emotional show, but on watching the various acts underlined for me what music is about.
A lot of the younger performers put a highly technically trained "bluesy" spin to the voice, which didn't work at all.
A "bluesy" rendition of "Blue Birds over the White Cliffs of Dover" just does not work!
I said to my wife that, even if people are illiterate, and can't count, one thing that we humans have in common and that is when we can tell if we're being sold something or that it is coming from the heart.
Folk can just tell! No matter how you disguise it. IMO anyway...
That's why I and a lot of other people all over the world were totally knocked out at Eva Cassidy's "Somewhere over the Rainbow"...she made the song fresh and real.
It's very seldom that you can equal a Classic let alone top it!
(Incidentally, I had just been listening to a History of the song "Somewhere over the Rainbow" on the radio, while I was having my lunch alone and I was recording the program to let my wife hear Eva, who I thought was great.
The song faded and then there was a sudden announcement that there had been an "accident" of a plane crashing into one of the World Trade Centre buildings....)
So it has become a very poignant song for me...
Different than when I first hear it in The Wizard of Oz.

Back to London....
When the singers did justice to the song and not themselves, then that's when it worked best.
For me, it's the same in Flamenco....
I'm not interested in that age worn argument that because somebody is unable to acquire a good technique, then he puts down his fellow players calling them charlatans for playing so "flowery" and not playing with "the heart".
That's just crap and it's always the players who play like crap that claim so.
But on the other hand, the "technocrats"...ie I can play it faster, louder, cooler, brigade that also leave me in some doubt.
Obviously it's best to have it in equal measure, like Paco, Camaron, Sanlucar etc.
While folk may be amazed at the picado techinique that Gerardo uses on his latest DVD, I'm still listening to how Diego Amaya finishes his phrases.
Not that I'm knocking Gerardo...he's fantastic, and seems a good human being as well.
What impresses me as a foreigner, listening to other foreigners, is little bits...like how a guy finishes a phrase or something....certainly not how fast his picado is!
Tomatito's accompaniment to Camaron on the "Live" CD is extremely basic, but so well done that you think it's a great falseta!
Remember, when you play music then everybody can hear you..maybe not what you are trying to project, but I think that most folk, even at a drunken party can tell if your music is intended for their heads or their hearts.
I think folk can tell if your fakin'.... as I observed with these singers tonight.

Anyway... cheers,

The Aged Crone,

Ron [:D]



ToddK -> RE: On music in general (May 8 2005 21:52:19)

I feel like i can tell when im hearing a guitarist who is playing
what they love because thats what they live for, or when
im hearing a guitarist who basically plays simply to impress others.

I wont name names.

But its usually obvious within 5 or 10 seconds where somebody's
coming from..:)


TK



Miguel de Maria -> RE: On music in general (May 9 2005 5:45:57)

Ron,
you should check out the version of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" by Iz, that is Israel Kawaiianakole (something like that, I actually can't spell his name). Just one very fat man with a sweet voice and a ukelele. It has actually become kind of popular and crops up now and then on commercials and what not.

I had a fun musical experience at a wedding a few days ago. We road tripped up to Sedona, about two hours a way, and played after a string quartet. Everything was messed up because for some reason it started hailing and everything had to be moved inside... so we had to set up while the quartet was still playing. Everyone was supposed to be outside at a cocktail reception, but they were milling about and in our way.

I had a little touchy situation with the other guitarist, because for most of our partnership, it had been his group, his gig, and I was basically just his accompaniast. However lately, I have been getting most of the gigs, and this particular client was very clear that they wanted the music to sound like my demo, not his (I think they had a copy of his, too!). So it was hard, but I had to be diplomatic for him not to turn the volume up too much or make those whalesong sounds with his effects pedal. Even though we were playing pretty quietly, the wedding planner came over and told us to turn it down.

But by the third hour, people had loosened up a little, and I think my partner had been stealthily turning his volume up, but no one cared. A couple people started dancing during one of our songs, and I guess people thought it was time to start dancing, because pretty soon the floor was packed. The DJ was actually waiting for us to stop so he could set up, another consequence of the weather-induced complications. Anyway, soon it became clear that we were going to be a dance band for the rest of the gig!

I have rarely played for people trying to dance, so we kept it simple and rhythmic--Santana, a couple other rock type songs, a cuban Guajira, for example. Rumbas are terrible to dance to, and of course any kind of classical or flamenco were out of the question! After all these were just normal people at a wedding! Anyway, it was getting tiring, but we just kept repeating stuff and messing around wth rasgueados and having our percussionist do solos. It was pertty fun! We got to really improvise and do whatever we wanted, as long as we kept the rhythm good for them to dance.

At the end, they wanted us to stay a couple more hours, but I wanted to go home (had a gig the next morning!) and we didn't want to step on the DJ's toes too much. AFter all, there is the macarena!



Ryan002 -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 15:27:35)

Just out of sheer curiosity Ron, when it comes to picking up commercialised or "showoff" music, what are the main things that set your cheese detectors off? As in, what elements do you assosciate with it "insincere" music?



Ron.M -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 16:11:10)

I don't quite know Ryan...I just sort of know it when I hear it.
It's hard to describe sound...[8|]

You can usually tell if folk are boasting, or being pretentious, or being sincere from their voice.....so why not when playing an instrument?

Listen to amateur rock guitarists test out guitars at the local music store. [:D]

cheers

Ron



JBASHORUN -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 16:33:56)

Shred guitarist Michael Angelo Batio is a good example of this. He is famous for being "the fastest electric guitarist in the world", and thats about it. He tours the world going to guitar shows and exhibitions to show off his technique. And is quite widely respected in the guitar world because of it.
However, I have to admit that I was (and still am) quite impressed by his technique. I might not like his songs much, but in all honesty it would be "cool" to be able to do what he can do on a guitar. after all, it does require some degree of skill.
The first time my teacher showed me the tremolo technique, I was also quite impressed by it, and that inspired me to learn the technique. Obviously I still haven't mastered it [:o] But one day I hope to be able to use it to good effect. Whether I put my heart into using it is another matter. Hopefully I will.
I believe that Hendrix probably put his heart into many of his songs, but he was also quite good at showing off, so maybe when you combine the two it is less of an issue.



James



JBASHORUN -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 16:43:22)

quote:

maybe when you combine the two it is less of an issue


After all, from what I've read on the forum, many members have heard techniques like Paco's Picado and said "Wow- I wish I could do that!"



Miguel de Maria -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 17:04:31)

I still feel a great frisson of "WOW" when I hear Paco's cadential/torrential picados, or a perfectly executed syncopation, or even one of those great old school 4 finger rasgueados. Nothing is wrong with WOW.



Ron.M -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 26 2005 20:22:44)

Yeah Mike,
But you are hearing WOW! in a great musical context with these guys you are talking about.
Once you take the musicianship and context away....well...

Ron



Ryan002 -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 28 2005 6:08:12)

Many, many years ago before I started playing the guitar I found an essay (I think by Barthes) in the library that relates somewhat to this. If any of you have read it before, please give me the title because I'd really like to read it again now.

I didn't understand it well at the time but the general gist of the argument was that as recording technology advanced, the musical canon would develop a wider "split". One canon for the audience, one canon for the musician. Music becomes increasingly fragmented as people no longer need to learn it to enjoy it (they can just pop in a CD, whereas 200+ years ago you learned to play it or you darn well walked 50 miles to the nearest concert hall). So the musician's understanding of music becomes increasingly distant from the audience. What's popular with the audience (say, boy band music) probably won't impress a musician, who knows it's easy to execute. What's alien and possibly unpleasant to the audience (say, music composed on the Dorian scale) may in fact impress the musician, who grasps the ingenuity or complexity of technique.

So if we use WOW! effects like blindingly fast movements or bizzare alternate tunings (ala Peter Finger) we are catering to musicians mainly. If we intend to communicate with the audience, well...there is such a thing as *too* complex. Only rarely does a musician or an audience actually manage to straddle both canons with any degree of comfort.



JBASHORUN -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 28 2005 12:57:19)

quote:

I found an essay (I think by Barthes) in the library that relates somewhat to this. If any of you have read it before, please give me the title because I'd really like to read it again now.


I can't quite remember, as its been so long since I read any Roland Barthes books (my media studies A-level was many years ago). But I think this essay is in Barthes' "Image-Music-Text" book or his "The Responsibility of Forms: Critical Essays on Music, Art and Representation" book. Although, if I remember correctly, Theodor Adorno had some very similar essays saying the same sort of thing.


I think I would agree though. Many of my non-guitarist friends simply do not appreciate Paco's picado or even Michael Angelo Batio's technique. To them it means nothing.

Maybe as your knowledge of an instrument and music as a whole develop, you also develop an appreciation for more complex music. That might also explain why some of the more musically intelligent forum members prefer more complex songs to me.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 28 2005 16:09:46)

Ryan,
I essentially agree with you. But let me say that while many people will sit in the room with great picado and not even notice, many will notice and sense that they are witnessing mastery. Picado is not really that complex--it is just fast scales and scale fragments--this is not hard to appreciate. When my brother in law saw a Paco video (and he is no musician) he said..."He's good." And Jay is pretty picky. Another thing is volume--if you are playing extremely powerfully near a normal person, they notice and pick up on it as a form of virtuosity. And yet another is the great tremolo. Someone with a good tremolo + a good tremolo piece will impress most non-guitarists, and some guitarists :). I tell you this, I get applause 50% of the time, and I am usually playing in background situations, when I play Recuerdos del Alhambra. That is very rare, but this piece is so outstanding that people really appreciate it.



Ryan002 -> RE: On music in general (Oct. 31 2005 4:16:35)

Thanks Jbashorun, Image - Music - Text was the one...though now I realize I was reading acommentary on the essay and not the essay itself [:D]

And Miguel...I hope you're right. Upon careful contemplation I'm pretty horrified by the thought that mastery may essentially be a construct...something coming from publicity and reputation rather than from a state of being.



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